View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #15401

    Re: A Revolution in Legacy!

    Welcome to the: **\ All B/R update speculation 2.0 /**

  2. #15402
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    Re: A Revolution in Legacy!

    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    It's the shell that keeps you from being flooded, or mana screwed. While asmadi guy draws 5 lands in 7 draw steps and goes to the bar. It's the shell that lets a 9 year old Brainstorm into 2 Invigorates and put back 2 extra lands in a flurry of skill intensive, while the not-blue player can't hit his 3rd land drop in his 23 land deck and gets wrecked by a fetus.
    The temptation to sig this is strong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Miagi View Post
    Welcome to the: **\ All B/R update speculation 2.0 /**
    This thread was fun while it lasted.

  3. #15403
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    Re: A Revolution in Legacy!

    Quote Originally Posted by lavafrogg View Post
    Ronald, my man, my main dude, when I used the term "broad generalization" I meant exactly that. A broad generalization of decktypes in the legacy meta game. We are also talking about the DtB section which means that Tin Fins is not apart of the conversation.

    Tier 3 decks have not been tested to be optimal or are just not as powerful as the tier 1 strategies.

    Meagadeus is exactly right with his last post in that at a very basic level the blue shell plays the same set of cards or "shell" as we have been saying.
    I think we're talking past each other. I don't disagree with what you're saying about the fact that the cantrips are played very broadly; my point is that they aren't the shell of a deck because the decks often wouldn't use those cards if they had added viable options for business and permission. The cantrips often aren't the things you want to run; they're the things you have to run in order to make other things tick. So I don't see why that bothers anyone any more than, for instance, the Legacy land staples. I'll concede that the cantrips are among the most commonly played cards in the format's winning decks, but I still feel like there's a substantive difference between those cards and the cards they enable.

    What I was saying to Megadeus was that I think he was focusing more on the enabling cards than on the overarching game plan of decks that run them, and I don't see anything wrong with a large number of decks' playing specific (homogenous) enablers to power very differing sets of business and permission. Probably splitting hairs, but I still think it's a reductive argument to say that the cantrips form a shell that embodies the strategy of the winning blue decks.

    Another way to think of it is that I see a big difference between a lot of top-tier decks' running Brainstorm and Ponder (which they do/did) and a lot of top-tier decks' running some hypothetical K.O.-card. I'd be a bit peeved if the entire top tier ran Belcher, for instance, or Tendrils, or Tarmogoyf, or Shardless Agent. I guess it's a matter of taste, because I don't view battles against Brainstorm decks to be formulaic, though I find battles against, e.g., Tarmogoyf, Delver, or Chalice of the Void to be.

    I actually like a lot of the newly (or once-again) dominant decks, and I'd love to give them a spin if I had the cards. I just don't think it's logical to group everything with Brainstorm and Ponder into a specific category the way it seems like several posters are doing.
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  4. #15404
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    Re: A Revolution in Legacy!

    You're arguing semantics at this point. Regardless of what word salad is used, you are describing a shell.

    It figuratively holds the contents of several strategies together like how a shell literally holds the contents of various eggs together. Sure one egg may make a chicken while another makes an alligator, but they all have a shell in common.

  5. #15405
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    Re: A Revolution in Legacy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    I actually like a lot of the newly (or once-again) dominant decks, and I'd love to give them a spin if I had the cards. I just don't think it's logical to group everything with Brainstorm and Ponder into a specific category the way it seems like several posters are doing.
    This is a very well-trodden subject here with a lot of emotion stapled onto it. Best to just accept that some people feel that way and move on. You have zero, and I mean zero chance of changing any opinions on the matter. Furthermore, I am appreciating the perspectives on the topic I asked for. If we go any more in the direction that takes us, Dice will have to close the thread because it will go downhill fast. People just can't help themselves.
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  6. #15406
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    Re: A Revolution in Legacy!

    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    while the not-blue player can't hit his 3rd land drop in his 23 land deck and gets wrecked by a fetus.
    To be fair, you're talking about delver-type decks whose mana curve basically stops at 2 and generally adopt a 8x 1cmc and 4x 2cmc threat suite. The non-Brainstorm deck is probably more mana hungry and uses fetchlands to actively hurt its odds to topdeck the next land. If a fair deck wants to play low to the ground, there are plenty of non-blue, legacy-costed effects out there that let them sluff lands from hand to get another draw. As it is, they overwhelmingly choose discard over effects that correct their hand.

    "I couldn't topdeck lands is the only reason you won" is something I hear all the time in limited when people get smashed by a deck that is low to the ground; there's nothing stopping people from making decks in any format that let them attain more satisfaction from the amount of magic they 'get to play' than annoyed by variance.

  7. #15407
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    Re: A Revolution in Legacy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Miagi View Post
    Welcome to the: **\ All B/R update speculation 2.0 /**
    Does anyone mind if I merge this with the Ban thread and you can all keep talking?
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  8. #15408
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    Re: A Revolution in Legacy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Does anyone mind if I merge this with the Ban thread and you can all keep talking?
    I don't see why not. We got a page or two of discussion before it kind of rambled off.
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  9. #15409
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    Re: A Revolution in Legacy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I don't see why not. We got a page or two of discussion before it kind of rambled off.
    You started this!
    "eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"

  10. #15410

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    What is the purpose of arguing over the "Blue shell"?

    If 4 brainstorms and force of will is a shell then so are these?

    punishing fire / grove of the burnwillows / life from the loam
    ancient tomb / city of traitors / chalice of the void
    gitaxian probe / cabal therapy
    deathrite shaman / abrupt decay

    the format is made up of compact combos / synergies of cards.

    I like how people can complain that a deck can smooth out land draws, yet have no issue with a different deck going sol land -> chalice and winning the game at that moment.

  11. #15411
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    I like how people can complain that a deck can smooth out land draws, yet have no issue with a different deck going sol land -> chalice and winning the game at that moment.
    ...people absolutely complain about the Sol Land/Chalice shell. It's just that the Blue shell is more flexible than the others, has a much larger share of the meta, and gives a bigger leg-up in long events.

  12. #15412
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Having by far the best card in legacy will do that. I mean DRS/Decay certainly is a shell. Every BG deck runs them at this point. My complaint is more that due to the power creep of cards that lists are becoming far more homogenized and there's no room for innovation. If you're playing a Delver deck, tell me what colors you want to play and I'll name off 56/60 of your main deck without thought. It's gotten to the point that every game plays the same and it's just become stale in my eyes at least.
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  13. #15413

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    What's the next card to be released from ban-list? I'm rooting for mana drain :) Or mindtwist!

  14. #15414

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    What's the next card to be released from ban-list? I'm rooting for mana drain :) Or mindtwist!
    If anything is unbanned, I expect it will be Mind Twist or Earthcraft. I've seen very few argue that those would be a problem in the format.

  15. #15415

    Re: A Revolution in Legacy!

    Quote Originally Posted by thecrav View Post
    The Decklists from the nine round Eternal Extravaganza 5 event are now posted. 75% Brainstorm.
    1: RG Lands
    2: Eldrazi
    3-4: UR Delver
    3-4: UWr Miracles
    5-8: Grixis Delver
    5-8 Shardless BUG
    5-8: UR Delver
    5-8 Grixis Delver
    Delver variants so it's one archetype, with 2 other decks that use brainstorm.

    What's the problem? Delver, ban Delver.

  16. #15416
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    I like how people can complain that a deck can smooth out land draws, yet have no issue with a different deck going sol land -> chalice and winning the game at that moment.
    Chalice brings deck building constraints. If you want to land it on one you have to limit the amount of cards you play that have that CMC. If you want to play Brainstorm, realisticly all you need is a Blue mana base. It's not the same thing. If adding Brainstorm to your deck was a conflicted choice, an act that meant removing other format vital cards from your deck, I am sure less people would complain.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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  17. #15417
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.



    Before you start talking about unbanning cards that result in more non-games, let's first unban the card that doesn't make you want to flip the table in disgust at how shit Legacy can be.
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  18. #15418

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    If anything is unbanned, I expect it will be Mind Twist or Earthcraft. I've seen very few argue that those would be a problem in the format.
    Yeah right, Earthcraft xD

  19. #15419
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post


    Before you start talking about unbanning cards that result in more non-games, let's first unban the card that doesn't make you want to flip the table in disgust at how shit Legacy can be.
    While I think that the card is probably safe, I do not look forward to having an opponent playing this and taking about 4-5 minutes stacking his deck, and then a couple of turns later doing it again, and then maybe again. That kind of time consuming mechanical chore I think is a much stronger reason to leave it banned than pure power level aspects imho. People already think that topping takes too long :p

  20. #15420

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    What's the next card to be released from ban-list? I'm rooting for mana drain :) Or mindtwist!
    Honestly, fuck mana drain.

    The few decks able to punish miracles properly would get dismantled by it.

    Turn 2 Though-knot, kk drain, then in my turn I'll go for jace into top into spin into bs into top/mentor into 4 tokens.
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