View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #17861
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Part of the reason why Deathrite is so good right now, is because there is little incentive to be running Graveyard hate when you could be exploiting your own Graveyard for advantage too.

    Once they print some "Thalia-equivalent" Rest in Peace version, Deathrite will fall in the same way that 'Goyf is no longer the "best" creature in Legacy.

    Honestly, if Deathrite isn't the correct power-level for Legacy, then I think Legacy is a shit-hole.
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  2. #17862
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Yes, I think we all can agree that legacy will be better when they print Rest in Peace bear. Can we get a petition going?

  3. #17863
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    Yes, I think we all can agree that legacy will be better when they print Rest in Peace bear. Can we get a petition going?
    /signed

  4. #17864
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I'll sign if they make it mono-black

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    I'll sign if they make it mono-black
    It DESERVES to be mono-black.

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  6. #17866
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    I'll sign if they make it mono-black
    As long as it's some creepy looking Yixlid whatever-the-hell they are.

    #ReturnToYixlid

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  7. #17867

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Part of the reason why Deathrite is so good right now, is because there is little incentive to be running Graveyard hate when you could be exploiting your own Graveyard for advantage too.

    Once they print some "Thalia-equivalent" Rest in Peace version, Deathrite will fall in the same way that 'Goyf is no longer the "best" creature in Legacy.

    Honestly, if Deathrite isn't the correct power-level for Legacy, then I think Legacy is a shit-hole.


    That's the closest thing right now.

  8. #17868

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    There's also the Dryad guy.

    Dryad Militant

  9. #17869
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    From reddit: " Brainstorm is not 'too strong', people just stopped trying to fight it (to the degree that when people do the brainstorm crowd gets bent out of shape and butthurt. Chalice is why you still have your stupid toys. Stop bitching already)."
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  10. #17870

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Of course this is just an anecdote, yet not one too far off the current metagame data
    That top8 was 62.5% Delver decks. That is miles off the current metagame data.
    http://mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE&meta=72

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    Here are the cards that I think need to go in order to ratchet down Xerox to the level I think people envision:

    Leovold
    Baleful Strix
    Gurmag Angler
    True-Name Nemesis
    Snapcaster Mage
    Deathrite Shaman
    Griselbrand
    Terminus
    Delver of Secrets
    Gitaxian Probe
    (Possibly) Mentor/Pyromancer
    Terminus? How in the world can you justify a ban that only hits Miracles?
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  11. #17871
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    From reddit: " Brainstorm is not 'too strong', people just stopped trying to fight it (to the degree that when people do the brainstorm crowd gets bent out of shape and butthurt. Chalice is why you still have your stupid toys. Stop bitching already)."
    I mean brainstorm probably is too strong, but I agree that I'm just done fighting it. I'm all in on blue cards now personally because I'm tired of losing to worse players with better cards.
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  12. #17872
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    Here are the cards that I think need to go in order to ratchet down Xerox to the level I think people envision:

    Leovold
    Baleful Strix
    Gurmag Angler
    True-Name Nemesis
    Snapcaster Mage
    Deathrite Shaman
    Griselbrand
    Terminus
    Delver of Secrets
    Gitaxian Probe
    (Possibly) Mentor/Pyromancer
    I think your over thinking it. Nothing you do outside of going nuclear on the format will solve Xerox. Perhaps that is a goal but I don't think it's a worthy one. Too much damage would be wrought upon the format for not a large amount of gains. The moment we look at taking out Gurmag in Legacy is the moment we have overreached.

    There are individual cards from Xerox that I do believe should take a hit, but the cards that surround them like Angler, Pyromancer, Mentor or Strix I feel are not worthy of debate. It's not that these are not strong effects, it's just that these effects are structurally dependent on more egregious offenders.

    Even so, I think if you took out Brainstorm and left the rest of Xerox in tack, we would be fine. Sure, Mentor will still fuck your day sometimes, but that's Legacy. But since Brainstorm is unlikely to see a ban, this is all for naught anyway.
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  13. #17873
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I mean brainstorm probably is too strong, but I agree that I'm just done fighting it. I'm all in on blue cards now personally because I'm tired of losing to worse players with better cards.
    Me too. And my podcast is 200% more boring now cos I can't talk about Goblins anymore and instead talk about my adding of Badlands and Tombstalka to Grixis Delver because that's "innovation" in Legacy today.
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  14. #17874
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkenslight View Post


    That's the closest thing right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    There's also the Dryad guy.

    Dryad Militant
    Yeah, which exemplifies why we are where we are. Neither of those cards is actually "good." Militant isn't terrible, but still fails to be what you really need it to be, because Militant is more of Snapcaster hate than anything else. Samurai is just bad though, it will almost never do what you need it to do.

    When they find a way to make Rest In Peace more playable, then things will really change. I'd say making it into a Thalia-like creature would go a long way toward that. Would Blue decks appropriate it? Some would, of course, but the idea would be to change some of the dynamic, provide some upside to being "Graveyard removing" rather than "Graveyard abusing."

    Right now, there isn't many good reasons to not lean on the Graveyard as a resource. Sure, you may get blown out by a RiP once in a while, but overwhelmingly often you'll just get 5/5's for , or Regrowth on a 2/1 body and so on. Imagine, with the "usual" meta-presence of Death and Taxes, what would happen to that dymanic, if there was a White creature who was main-deckable with a RiP effect. Decks would certainly have to consider how "in the 'Yard" they really want to be, when there is a much higher chance that those cards would, or could, be dead weight.

    It's like the old Affinity days. You could build something to beat Affinity and do it pretty well, but then lose to random other nonsense, or your deck's own inconsistancy. Or, you could just play Affinity itself and take the coinflip in the mirror while still smashing other decks.

    That's one of the main things learned from that era (and others): doing "the thing" is almost always better than being the deck trying to stop people from "doing the thing." Right now, "the thing" is using the Graveyard as a resource. Until there is sufficient reason not to, people will continue to do so to their advantage.
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  15. #17875
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Yeah, which exemplifies why we are where we are. Neither of those cards is actually "good." Militant isn't terrible, but still fails to be what you really need it to be, because Militant is more of Snapcaster hate than anything else. Samurai is just bad though, it will almost never do what you need it to do.

    When they find a way to make Rest In Peace more playable, then things will really change. I'd say making it into a Thalia-like creature would go a long way toward that. Would Blue decks appropriate it? Some would, of course, but the idea would be to change some of the dynamic, provide some upside to being "Graveyard removing" rather than "Graveyard abusing."

    Right now, there isn't many good reasons to not lean on the Graveyard as a resource. Sure, you may get blown out by a RiP once in a while, but overwhelmingly often you'll just get 5/5's for , or Regrowth on a 2/1 body and so on. Imagine, with the "usual" meta-presence of Death and Taxes, what would happen to that dymanic, if there was a White creature who was main-deckable with a RiP effect. Decks would certainly have to consider how "in the 'Yard" they really want to be, when there is a much higher chance that those cards would, or could, be dead weight.

    It's like the old Affinity days. You could build something to beat Affinity and do it pretty well, but then lose to random other nonsense, or your deck's own inconsistancy. Or, you could just play Affinity itself and take the coinflip in the mirror while still smashing other decks.

    That's one of the main things learned from that era (and others): doing "the thing" is almost always better than being the deck trying to stop people from "doing the thing." Right now, "the thing" is using the Graveyard as a resource. Until there is sufficient reason not to, people will continue to do so to their advantage.
    I'm "doing the thing", but not to the extent as everyone else. I concede the point however, that the format has needs. I don't necessarily think that banning half of Czech Pile is gonna accomplish anything. And realistically, if Wizards was gonna do anything about XeroxPlusWincon.dec, they would have done, and undone.

    Do I think DnT needs RiP on a stick? Truthfully, no. The deck is strong enough. Plus if you need gravehate that bad, there are ways. Macabre, Surgical, Leyline, Morningtide and RiP are all examples. No, they're not A++, but as a Jund player I don't get A++ choices either. That should be written somewhere I think. "You will not have perfect cards."

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  16. #17876
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by KærvekTheMerciless View Post
    I'm "doing the thing", but not to the extent as everyone else. I concede the point however, that the format has needs. I don't necessarily think that banning half of Czech Pile is gonna accomplish anything. And realistically, if Wizards was gonna do anything about XeroxPlusWincon.dec, they would have done, and undone.

    Do I think DnT needs RiP on a stick? Truthfully, no. The deck is strong enough. Plus if you need gravehate that bad, there are ways. Macabre, Surgical, Leyline, Morningtide and RiP are all examples. No, they're not A++, but as a Jund player I don't get A++ choices either. That should be written somewhere I think. "You will not have perfect cards."

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    Well, I am certainly not for banning half of Czech Pile either. I'm also really not for banning cantrips, for that matter. Xerox is probably about the best thing you can do in Magic. Using the Graveyard as a resource is probably the second best thing to be doing. So, it's not really a surprise that doing both those things is, like, a really good thing to do.

    But why is it that Death and Taxes shouldn't be better than it is now? I don't see any real reason, except maybe some people dislike playing against it. But who cares? I dislike playing against Storm, but I don't think it shouldn't get cards, or should be banned or whatever. I actually hate playing against Elves, but it doesn't bother me that it exists or could get cards to be more powerful.

    I'm not advocating for perfect cards. I am advocating for cards that change meta-game dynamics, making choices more interesting. And I am fine is Jund colors get better cards too. RiP on a creature is not "perfect" because it is more vulnerable than an Enchantment, but it is more synergistic and more main-deckable, and that is the point.
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  17. #17877
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    RIP was very playable for awhile. The problem is now that the decks it's good against are even more efficient than they used to be. BR doesn't care at all about RIP if the RIP player is on the draw. Grixis stuff can achieve angler quickly and has a million cheap ways to stop RIP before it happens. The raw efficiency of the format is its own undoing at this point. It's become hyper efficient to the point where a 2 drop end all be all graveyard hate card is nigh unplayable
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  18. #17878

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I'm all in on blue cards now personally because I'm tired of losing to worse players with better cards.
    Every large tournament is dominated by blue cards, so just natural that you play a deck that utilizes these cards. If winning isn't important, play your pet deck. This is the nature of Legacy, been this way for long time. Good or bad, cards like DRS, Snapcaster, Strix and Jace just solidified this. Shocked it took this long for a deck like 4C control to become dominate, but also shows how powerful top was in Miracles.

  19. #17879

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Maybe some super narrow cards would work?

    Like,
    W
    2/1
    If an instant would cost 0 or 1 mana, it instead costs 2

    That specifically just hits Daze/Force/Brainstorm/Thought Scour/Opt (well, I guess StP too), but its narrow, it's universal, and it wouldn't see play in Xerox, while hating on it really well.

    You could do something similar in red or black.

    R
    2/1
    If an instant would cost 0 or 1 mana, ~ deals 2 damage to that spells controller

    B
    2/1
    If an instant would cost 0 or 1 mana, that spells controller discards a card

    I mean, hating on Xerox isn't hard, heck, those cards could be printed in standard and have ZERO effect on the format, while hugely shaking up Legacy. I mean heck, make it a cycle.

    G
    2/1
    If an instant would cost 0 or 1 mana, target opponent of that spells controller puts a 1/1 token into play

    U
    0/1
    If an instant would cost 0 or 1 mana, target opponent of that spells controller Fateseals 1

  20. #17880
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    That top8 was 62.5% Delver decks. That is miles off the current metagame data.
    http://mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE&meta=72
    The term "delver deck" might was a bit misleading as not every aggro-control deck was using Delver AND DRS. The UR and RUG variants as well as part of the stoneblades add up with the DRS-only versions, while DRS itself is more than 1/3 of the meta itself (obviously also including Elves and other deck running it).

    A more realistic estimation (because I lack the time to sieve out the tournaments) would be ~40% of Legacy running DRS and/or Delver.
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