View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 995 of 1007 FirstFirst ... 4958959459859919929939949959969979989991005 ... LastLast
Results 19,881 to 19,900 of 20126

Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #19881

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I'm starting to come around on the idea of a fetch ban, but only if they use their new "look at the top x" cards design, and make them of a sufficient digging power to replicate a fetch. Like, look at your top 10, and take an island or swamp card and put it into play, put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order. Something like that, which is printed sufficiently, any coincides with a fetch ban would be ok with me.

  2. #19882

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    I'm starting to come around on the idea of a fetch ban, but only if they use their new "look at the top x" cards design, and make them of a sufficient digging power to replicate a fetch. Like, look at your top 10, and take an island or swamp card and put it into play, put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order. Something like that, which is printed sufficiently, any coincides with a fetch ban would be ok with me.
    That could be an interesting new take on Fetchlands, and would force players to not rely on a single land splash with 10+ fetchlands.

    Maybe something along the lines of:

    NeoFetch
    Tap, Sacrifice, Search the top 8(?) cards of your deck for an island and put it into play, if it would come into play tapped, it comes into play untapped instead. If you did, and the island was non-basic, take 1 damage.

    really changes up how they work, still fetches your duals, and allows you to fetch shocks untapped without taking the 2. probably too wordy though.

  3. #19883
    Greatness awaits!
    Lemnear's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Location

    Berlin, Germany
    Posts

    6,909

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    No fetches/Brainstorm would make Sneak//Show extremely clunky but playable, there is still actual upside in playing the deck as you can still ape out a Griselbrand turn 2.
    Except that it's less consistent than Belcher. That sounds like a fair tradeoff
    www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!

    Join us at Facebook!

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  4. #19884
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    849

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bithlord View Post
    That could be an interesting new take on Fetchlands, and would force players to not rely on a single land splash with 10+ fetchlands.

    Maybe something along the lines of:

    NeoFetch
    Tap, Sacrifice, Search the top 8(?) cards of your deck for an island and put it into play, if it would come into play tapped, it comes into play untapped instead. If you did, and the island was non-basic, take 1 damage.

    really changes up how they work, still fetches your duals, and allows you to fetch shocks untapped without taking the 2. probably too wordy though.
    You know, or just Bad River, Flood Plain, Rocky Tar Pit, Mountain Valley, Grassland. Perfectly playable cards that make you trade speed for multi-color utility while promoting interaction (~risk) as they ETB tapped. Basic land fetching also exists already with cards like Ash Barrens, Renegade Map, Evolving Wilds, Thawing Glaciers, etc... You could also choose a path that promotes stack interaction with more creative cards like Entomb -> Dakmor Salvage/Riftstone Portal, Tithe/Land Tax, Land Grant. There's no need to come up with anything new (aside from perhaps printing Mirage fetches to include enemy colors), the issue here is: reprint the dual lands, *then* ban fetches.

  5. #19885

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    You know, or just Bad River, Flood Plain, Rocky Tar Pit, Mountain Valley, Grassland. Perfectly playable cards that make you trade speed for multi-color utility while promoting interaction (~risk) as they ETB tapped. Basic land fetching also exists already with cards like Ash Barrens, Renegade Map, Evolving Wilds, Thawing Glaciers, etc... You could also choose a path that promotes stack interaction with more creative cards like Entomb -> Dakmor Salvage/Riftstone Portal, Tithe/Land Tax, Land Grant. There's no need to come up with anything new (aside from perhaps printing Mirage fetches to include enemy colors), the issue here is: reprint the dual lands, *then* ban fetches.
    You had me until the reprint duals part...never happening, not worth talking about.

  6. #19886

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    You know, or just Bad River, Flood Plain, Rocky Tar Pit, Mountain Valley, Grassland. Perfectly playable cards that make you trade speed for multi-color utility while promoting interaction (~risk) as they ETB tapped. Basic land fetching also exists already with cards like Ash Barrens, Renegade Map, Evolving Wilds, Thawing Glaciers, etc... You could also choose a path that promotes stack interaction with more creative cards like Entomb -> Dakmor Salvage/Riftstone Portal, Tithe/Land Tax, Land Grant. There's no need to come up with anything new (aside from perhaps printing Mirage fetches to include enemy colors), the issue here is: reprint the dual lands, *then* ban fetches.
    Those are all bad cards, the idea of a fetch ban isn't to reduce the power level of the format, it's to eliminate shuffling. Your suggestion reduces the power level and leaves shuffling in place, thereby missing both goals.

  7. #19887

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    Those are all bad cards, the idea of a fetch ban isn't to reduce the power level of the format, it's to eliminate shuffling. Your suggestion reduces the power level and leaves shuffling in place, thereby missing both goals.
    It's to eliminate shuffling?

  8. #19888
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    849

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    Those are all bad cards, the idea of a fetch ban isn't to reduce the power level of the format, it's to eliminate shuffling. Your suggestion reduces the power level and leaves shuffling in place, thereby missing both goals.
    You can't ban off every card that says shuffle on it. The best you can hope for is raise the bar on what it takes for a card that instructs a shuffle (or waste time in some other way) to translate into a winning strategy. Banning SDT didn't stop rounds from going to time, it just made resolving Counterbalance less likely to win on the spot (in a game that would have to be played out for tens of miserable minutes for no reason, and you know, might also include endlessly floating a guaranteed win on top of the deck with the sole purpose of tricking opponents into wasting time for g2/3). How exactly will addressing the concept of [some of the] shuffling prevent large events from going to time when all it takes is 1 match to go to extra turns?

  9. #19889

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Indeed. One of the things that make brainstorm broken is that you can shuffle away dead cards, making it a veritable Ancestral+. It also stops time being wastes in comp events and takes away power from SDT as well as DRS.

  10. #19890

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    You can't ban off every card that says shuffle on it. The best you can hope for is raise the bar on what it takes for a card that instructs a shuffle (or waste time in some other way) to translate into a winning strategy. Banning SDT didn't stop rounds from going to time, it just made resolving Counterbalance less likely to win on the spot (in a game that would have to be played out for tens of miserable minutes for no reason, and you know, might also include endlessly floating a guaranteed win on top of the deck with the sole purpose of tricking opponents into wasting time for g2/3). How exactly will addressing the concept of [some of the] shuffling prevent large events from going to time when all it takes is 1 match to go to extra turns?
    Less shuffling makes for better coverage, that's the main point. Wizards doesn't care about the person playing Four Horsemen that's at 1-8.

  11. #19891
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    849

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    Less shuffling makes for better coverage, that's the main point. Wizards doesn't care about the person playing Four Horsemen that's at 1-8.
    Umm.....Fetchlands are what got DRS banned and why Brainstorm is even talked about as a controversial card. While few exceptions exist:
    -Playing Fetchlands = winning.
    -Playing Fetchlands = homogenization of strategies by defining the most powerful methods of exploitation (Brainstorm, DRS, etc...).

    The reason you see Fetchlands in coverage is because they inflame consistency and/or power engines (pretty much regardless of color restrictions). Dialing down mana fixing to any of the alternatives I suggested doesn't directly affect the printed text on any other cards. Fetchlands by themselves are how you win - not a diverse way of playing the game, not a flavor; just how to win b/c nothing else can match their effortless efficiency. If decks magically self-randomized each time a Fetch was cracked, it would not excuse Fetchlands being legal because these cards have very real power level issues.

  12. #19892
    Member
    Kap'n Cook's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2012
    Location

    West Coast
    Posts

    477

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Umm.....Fetchlands are what got DRS banned and why Brainstorm is even talked about as a controversial card. While few exceptions exist:
    -Playing Fetchlands = winning.
    -Playing Fetchlands = homogenization of strategies by defining the most powerful methods of exploitation (Brainstorm, DRS, etc...).

    The reason you see Fetchlands in coverage is because they inflame consistency and/or power engines (pretty much regardless of color restrictions). Dialing down mana fixing to any of the alternatives I suggested doesn't directly affect the printed text on any other cards. Fetchlands by themselves are how you win - not a diverse way of playing the game, not a flavor; just how to win b/c nothing else can match their effortless efficiency. If decks magically self-randomized each time a Fetch was cracked, it would not excuse Fetchlands being legal because these cards have very real power level issues.

    The solution? Ban the enemy fetches for aesthetic reasons
    Strawberry Shortcake

    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...erry-Shortcake

    What a brainstorm do? Draw card and activate on draw effects fix hand, removing woods
    #FreeNedleeds

    Quote Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi
    kinda wanna say free ned leeds since that seems to be the thing here but to be honest I have no clue who he is. so i'll just say keep on painting!

  13. #19893
    Foreign Black Border
    Lord_Mcdonalds's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2012
    Location

    Houston, Texas
    Posts

    708

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Except that it's less consistent than Belcher. That sounds like a fair tradeoff
    Itís not like ponder and Preordain donít exist.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goin Aggro View Post
    Ugh, there he goes again, talking about the girlfriend. We get it dude.

  14. #19894

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Umm.....Fetchlands are what got DRS banned and why Brainstorm is even talked about as a controversial card. While few exceptions exist:
    -Playing Fetchlands = winning.
    -Playing Fetchlands = homogenization of strategies by defining the most powerful methods of exploitation (Brainstorm, DRS, etc...).

    The reason you see Fetchlands in coverage is because they inflame consistency and/or power engines (pretty much regardless of color restrictions). Dialing down mana fixing to any of the alternatives I suggested doesn't directly affect the printed text on any other cards. Fetchlands by themselves are how you win - not a diverse way of playing the game, not a flavor; just how to win b/c nothing else can match their effortless efficiency. If decks magically self-randomized each time a Fetch was cracked, it would not excuse Fetchlands being legal because these cards have very real power level issues.
    There's nothing wrong with fetchlands being powerful though, something is going to be a powerful enabler in the format.

    Also, DRS wasn't banned because of fetchlands. It was banned because you could cast it off of black mana. If DRS was green mana rather than hybrid mana the card would have been perfectly fine. Powerful still, but it wouldn't have needed a ban.

  15. #19895
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2015
    Location

    Chilltown
    Posts

    684

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook View Post
    The solution? Ban the enemy fetches for aesthetic reasons
    Literally the best idea I've seen on this thread in ages. And I LIKE those cards.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  16. #19896
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    849

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    Also, DRS wasn't banned because of fetchlands. It was banned because you could cast it off of black mana.
    Your two statements taken together say that Fetchlands got DRS banned, because that's how it got the extra mana...

    Don't think it really matters what land casts DRS if the seamless casting off of one land resulted in two lands (one in the yard).

  17. #19897

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    Also, DRS wasn't banned because of fetchlands. It was banned because you could cast it off of black mana.
    He is a one drop that could be cast by two different colors, but is a 1/2 rather than the traditional 1/1 Mana dork that can only be cast from one color of mana. Then, they added stabilizing life-gain AND a grindy win-con against any number of opponents that essentially gives him vigilance (at least in regard to this specific ability), and then wrapped all 3 abilities up into one giant piece of graveyard hate, but the reason he was banned is because he can be cast with a second (non-blue) color? Get outta here.

  18. #19898
    Greatness awaits!
    Lemnear's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Location

    Berlin, Germany
    Posts

    6,909

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    Itís not like ponder and Preordain donít exist.
    Neither gets rid of the 2 Emrakul and 1 Griselbrand in your hand. Ponder also forces you to keep the top 3 or go for a random card.

    Consistency of SnT variants and the ability to shuffle away chaff is the reason why SnT itself was a topic in this thread time and time again. It's one of many cards which would get significantly nerfed without the Fetch/BS/Ponder core.
    www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!

    Join us at Facebook!

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  19. #19899
    Member
    talpa's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2016
    Location

    Italy
    Posts

    84

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Can't believe I am bothering to reply to all this craziness.

    As if "ban fetchland" wouldn't be ridiculous enough by itself, you go on saying that brainstorm without fetchland wouldn't work.
    Right, because there aren't other shuffle or mill effects in legacy

    And the reason behind all this (apart from the obvious stupidity this thread of the forum being still open)? because you can't accept that there are archetypes that really NEED to be able to shuffle away cards that are bad for the matchup. Brainstorm is no Ancestral, if you want to build a deck with control elements, you need to put in it both board control elements and "pile control" elements, and half of your deck would be almost completely useless in a given matchup. So you are simply saying "I don't want midrange/control deck because... because. Or, because I don't like 'em!"

    Really useful thread.

  20. #19900
    Greatness awaits!
    Lemnear's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Location

    Berlin, Germany
    Posts

    6,909

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    "I don't want midrange/control deck because... because. Or, because I don't like 'em!"

    Really useful thread.
    I don't get why you reply to a topic, if you didnt bother to read the arguments in the first place.
    www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!

    Join us at Facebook!

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 7 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 7 guests)