All B/R update speculation.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

You might have made similar extrapolation when DRS was this old in the format. But it would have been a very silly and highly illogical!

I hope you're not comparing a creature (moreover one that's meant to untap-and-then- tap to get any profit of it) with an instant.
For DRS, there are lots of reasons why it's too powerful, but none of them is akin to those of DDT.
Also DRS (and yeah... Branstorm too) allows far more strategies than Dig.

[Crimhead]

I hope you're not comparing a creature (moreover one that's meant to untap-and-then- tap to get any profit of it) with an instant.

When it comes t ridiculous extrapolations I am. DRS's number were about 75% of DTT's - not too far off. Also, are you really suggesting the rise in play of Brainstorm over the years is because it took this long for players to learn how to use it?

Also DRS (and yeah... Branstorm too) allows far more strategies than Dig.

DTT facilitates in pure control, midrange control, Tempo, 2-card combo, and storm* style combo

*Solidarity isn't quite competitive, but that's no fault of DTT.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Thing with DRs is that it's win con on itself and that it supresses opposing gy (and thus opposing DRs and DTT) while being rightfully called "the one-mana planeswalker".
DTT ain't that. Not that it matters coz I think than that it's DTT that should be axed, not DRS.

[Amon Amarth]

Mostly Goblins, I think. That deck was on the decline too I think, but was still a solid tier 2 deck or better before AVR. Maybe Affinity? That deck was never quite tier one either. Burn sucks against Miracles, but that's more about the Counter-Top than the Terminus.

I cant remember the exact chronology of Merfolk's decline - but I these days with 4x Chalice main, Forces, Vial, and a very fast clock, I can only imagine a solid MU vs Miracles.

Goblins never had a bad matchup vs Miracles. It's problem is that it's basically the same deck as it was a decade ago. Terminus hurts Zoo and Maverick quite a bit more but at least in the case of Zoo, pure aggro decks just aren't very good anymore. I'd say it's more of a confluence of factors in this case rather than any one card or decks fault.

[Crimhead]

Goblins never had a bad matchup vs Miracles. It's problem is that it's basically the same deck as it was a decade ago. Terminus hurts Zoo and Maverick quite a bit more but at least in the case of Zoo, pure aggro decks just aren't very good anymore. I'd say it's more of a confluence of factors in this case rather than any one card or decks fault.

I recall now that not only was Goblins struggling before AVR, but that set actually helped the deck with Cavern Of Souls, and gave it one last hurrah. It was TNN that killed Gobos - not the card itself, but the splash damage (-1/-1 effects).

Maverick also was very strong in the summer of 2012. It fell of the map because Jund was better in almost every MU. Jund (which had a bigger share of the meta than Miracles does) also took a hit when TNN hit the scene, as it could no longer run over blue based aggro-control with Punishing Fire.

[jrw1985]

I recall now that not only was Goblins struggling before AVR, but that set actually helped the deck with Cavern Of Souls, and gave it one last hurrah. It was TNN that killed Gobos - not the card itself, but the splash damage (-1/-1 effects). Maverick also was very strong in the summer of 2012. It fell of the map because Jund was better in almost every MU. Jund (which had a bigger share of the meta than Miracles does) also took a hit when TNN hit the scene, as it could no longer run over blue based aggro-control with Punishing Fire.

I've been a dedicated Goblins player for the past five years and wanted to put my two cents in on this. In my experience there are three factors that have truly hurt Goblins, and -1/-1 effects are not among them.

First, Deathrite Shaman made Lackey easily blockable. Since DRS is a mana accelerator it created a huge tempo swing where my accelator (Lackey) got shut off while my opponent simultaneously sped their mana base up one turn.

Secondly, Abrupt Decay became the removal spell of choice in all these BGxyz decks. It gave decks with a high metagame share a maindeck midgame answer to Aether Vial. Before AB nobody was mainboarding artifact hate.

Lastly, and most importantly, the mana curve of the Legacy format continues to approach Zero, and Goblins is playing the curve from 10 years ago . Most top tier decks are playing around 18 lands now because they don't need more than two lands in play and any fetch land easily fixes their mana base. Goblins needs around 22 lands to function. This creates functional card advantage for the non-goblin deck because they have more cards in their deck that do something.

That being said, I still love playing Goblins and still do well with the deck.

[phonics]

Decks like Goblins and old 'aggro'/ midrange creature based decks have been pushed out by new creatures that are very powerful in colors that did not have access to such power. There is no reason to run these kinds of decks when you can play better creatures in decks with a better color base (ie blue instead of green or red). I think these decks evolved into contemporary jund (black/red primarily) and delver (blue/red primarily), where the jund strategy is long and grindy and the delver is fast and disruptive.

[Stevestamopz]

There wasn't any one thing that killed goblins because everything contributed.

Goblins is still an ok deck if you play against other tier 30 decks but it's shit against pretty much all of the tier 1 decks. I have no idea how it's supposed to beat Grixis/4 Colour delver and I don't even want to try. At least the older delver decks were pretty threat light and their biggest threat (Tarmogoyf) could be dealt with by emptying the graveyards. Gurmag Angler, Lightning Bolts and Young Pyromancer? No thanks.

[bruizar]

Needs more Goblin King. Mountainwalk those Volcanics!

[FieryBalrog]

Perfect example of what a shit mono-color format Legacy has become. One shell to rule them all.

Doesn't relate to when sets drop but it shows the trend of top played cards from each year and how they trended.

[btm10]

Jund (which had a bigger share of the meta than Miracles does) also took a hit when TNN hit the scene, as it could no longer run over blue based aggro-control with Punishing Fire.

Jund's meta share may have fallen into decline around that time, but it's silly to suggest that it became more poorly positioned because of TNN. A typical late 2013/early 2014 Jund list ran 3 MD Liliana (and the full set was not unheard of) on top of Decays and Punishing Fires, so TNN was generally a non-issue for the deck.

I don't have any significant disagreements with your positions on the meta writ large, though I do think you should be more careful when phrasing your statements.

[Crimhead]

Jund's meta share may have fallen into decline around that time, but it's silly to suggest that it became more poorly positioned because of TNN. A typical late 2013/early 2014 Jund list ran 3 MD Liliana (and the full set was not unheard of) on top of Decays and Punishing Fires, so TNN was generally a non-issue for the deck.

PF and AD don't hit TNN. Liliana can deal with TNN, but it can't push its way through counter-magic like PF can (which was a big factor in Jund beating blue based aggro-control).

Perfect example of what a shit mono-color format Legacy has become.

Legacy is blue heavy, nobody will argue against that. calling it a mono-blue format is just silly and false. Every colour contributes significantly to the meta-game. That's a fact.

[ironclad8690]

Actually, Jund put up more numbers than ever before in the SCG Invitational/Open at the end of 2013, when TNN was played the most (Deathblade and Patriot were a huge craze after TNN hit the scene).

I actually played Jund up until TC and Dig Through Time came out, but then I felt very disadvantaged by the ability of the blue decks to recoup their resources (I couldn't beat em, so I joined em).

Even after TC got banned, DTT turned Omnitell from a decent (even favorable) matchup into a crappy one, and the UR/x Delver decks are still tough to beat even without TC. Lands is also at an all time high and that was never a fun matchup either; and though I haven't tested it I can't imagine Mentor made things any easier for Jund.

Edit: Only 43% brainstorm penetration in the latest legacy iq: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...num=1&limit=16

[btm10]

PF and AD don't hit TNN. Liliana can deal with TNN, but it can't push its way through counter-magic like PF can (which was a big factor in Jund beating blue based aggro-control).

Have you ever played with or against Jund? It doesn't give a shit about most countermagic beyond early Dazes because they're too busy wrecking your hand or flooding the board with value from Bob, Sylvan Library, or Bloodbraid Elf for it to be effective. By the time opponents were deploying TNNs Liliana was usually either in play or well on her way to being found. At the time, lining up well with the TNN-Blade decks was one of the major reasons to play Jund. This is also when Golgari Charm became ubiquitous in BGx sideboards if I remember correctly.

Edit: Only 43% brainstorm penetration in the latest legacy iq: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...num=1&limit=16

And three Burn decks in the Top 16. After the on-camera match at the last SCG Invitational I wonder if maybe Burn has lost some of its stigma? Exquisite Firecraft does seem to take Miracles from about even (maybe a little unfavorable) to a solid matchup postboard. Obviously we'll have to wait, but it'll be very interesting to watch the Burn numbers.

[Barook]

And three Burn decks in the Top 16. After the on-camera match at the last SCG Invitational I wonder if maybe Burn has lost some of its stigma? Exquisite Firecraft does seem to take Miracles from about even (maybe a little unfavorable) to a solid matchup postboard. Obviously we'll have to wait, but it'll be very interesting to watch the Burn numbers.

I wouldn't discount that the Legacy tournament only had 119 people/7 rounds and Modern being a viable alternative compared to the typical Standard Open.

Edit: I guess I found the mistake from TC Decks - the numbers actually match, but the data is polluted by events like this.

Looking at the 5 big events Legacy had in August with over 100 players, we had 76.54% Brainstorm penetration for the reported (total) data of those events, with an average 75% Brainstorm penetration in the Top 8.

[Dice_Box]

Legacy is blue heavy, nobody will argue against that. calling it a mono-blue format is just silly and false. Every colour contributes significantly to the meta-game. That's a fact.

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

[Quasim0ff]

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

Hey! Look at me, I can also quote Orwell:

"Ignorance is strength" (also: "I love watching the Tele.")

[Dice_Box]

In this case, it is the most honest statement I can think of when it comes to Legacy. "Hay all, stop bitching you can play other colours too" just feels like "Some are more equal than others". We know we can tap Forests, its just better to tap Islands if you want to win more often in this format.

[Crimhead]

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

I'm certainly not saying Blue isn't the strongest colour. There is a reason roughly half the (coloured) cards played in Legacy are blue.

In this case, it is the most honest statement I can think of when it comes to Legacy. "Hay all, stop bitching you can play other colours too" just feels like "Some are more equal than others".

I don't mind people bitching. If folks want to bitch that 50% of cards played are blue, or that 65%-80% of decks run blue, they can bitch all they want! It's when people say stupid things like Legacy is a "mono-colour format" that I have to object.

This is like whinny child who says things like "we never stop for ice-cream" or "Billy always gets to ride in the front". In reality the kid does get ice-cream, just not as often as they would like. But in the heat of the moment the child becomes irrational and says things which are flagrantly false. We forgive the child because they are emotionally immature, and in some cases need a nap and their teddy-bear. But we do correct them.

People who talk like this are not going to convince anyone, and will only get sympathy from people who already dislike the format for being too blue. These posts drive this thread into being more of a support group than a discussion group.

We know we can tap Forests, its just better to tap Islands if you want to win more often in this format.

The vast majority of decks which tap Islands also tap Forests or some other basic land type. And I'd argue that you don't win less often by not running Islands - you just have fewer deck choices than you would if you chose a different colour not to run.

[H]

As fun as this circular echo chamber is, let's change the dialogue here for a moment.

We're approaching another B&R announcement in a few weeks, so what I think we should be talking about is the following:

Given what effect Treasure Cruise had on the meta leading to it's ban, are we in the same place now with Dig Through Time? Or only something like that place? Or in a wholly different place?

Based on that, what do we think will be the movement for this update?