All B/R update speculation.

[menace13]

Can't you just brainstorm, draw more gas and shuffle the dead cruise away and win anyway? Without Brainstorm Cruise will be far less consistent <obv>. Brainstorm is enabling all this idiocy because it's hopelessly overpowered.

Exactly. The format hasn't changed. Blue decks still on top. The same blue decks with or without TC.

to keep excessively swingy cards, obviously broken cards.

You mean like Brainstorm? Oh, wait, never mind..

This is why no one takes the ban Brainstorm crowd seriously.

You mean the keep brainstorm crowd takes its self seriously and the ban brainstorm crowd doesnt take the pro-brainstrom crowd seriously?

Or when the brainstorm crowd says things like:

While Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage, its restriction was essentially the cost of having Gush unrestricted.

Umm. No, not really. But, ok. Brainstorm, Ponder and Gush were all axed the same with the same restricted announcement.

Announcement Date: June 1, 2008
Effective Date: June 20, 2008
Vintage

Brainstorm is restricted
Flash is restricted
Gush is restricted
Merchant Scroll is restricted
Ponder is restricted

Maybe one should check things like that before they say things they have no clue about. Just saying.

[btm10]

Umm. No, not really. But, ok. Brainstorm, Ponder and Gush were all axed the same with the same restricted announcement.

Maybe one should check things like that before they say things they have no clue about. Just saying.

Or you know, follow up:

Explanation of September 20, 2010 B&R Changes

...

Both Gush and Frantic Search have been in overpowered decks in the past. However, it is not clear that either fits easily in the best performing decks of late, such as Jace, the Mind Sculptor control or various Mishra's Workshop decks. Frantic Search has been restricted for 10 years, and the DCI thinks it is time to see what it can do as a 4-of. Gush was restricted a few years ago. Brainstorm and Merchant Scroll were restricted at the same time, however, and the DCI would like to revisit whether Gush decks can be a healthy addition to the diversity of the format if you can play 4 Gush, but not 4 of either of the other cards.

Still, the suggestion that Brainstorm inhabits the same realm of brokenness as Balance or Yawgmoth's Will or Tinker is a joke.

[FoolofaTook]

Or you know, follow up:



Still, the suggestion that Brainstorm inhabits the same realm of brokenness as Balance or Yawgmoth's Will or Tinker is a joke.

Brainstorm isn't broken the way any of those cards are. However it creates a meta in which everybody either plays blue or plays against blue. Then you get to the 60% plus of top 8 lists using a full playset and I think it's obvious that Brainstorm is boxing in the meta in unhealthy ways and has been doing so almost since Legacy was created.

There are defining cards in every format. They're the cards you see consistently at the top tables at the end of a long tournament. For Legacy those cards are Force of Will and Brainstorm. It wouldn't hurt the format at all to make blue less dominant at the top tables.

In truth the only thing that keeps the top tables from being almost all blue is that many players either can't or won't spend to get the lands required to play blue lists. Blue is a $2500-$4000 investment in Legacy. Many non-blue competitive lists are $600-$2000. One of the reasons we're going to get an explosion of UR Delver at this point is that it can be built for $1600-$2000 depending on whether you already own the fetches and it has most of the blue power in it.

[btm10]

Brainstorm isn't broken the way any of those cards are. However it creates a meta in which everybody either plays blue or plays against blue. Then you get to the 60% plus of top 8 lists using a full playset and I think it's obvious that Brainstorm is boxing in the meta in unhealthy ways and has been doing so almost since Legacy was created.

According to HSCK's data, which is the only full data for the period as far as I know, 41.1% of top twelve decks run Brainstorm over the ten months from the release of Commander 2013 (i.e., the printing of True-Name Nemesis) in October 2013 to 31 August 2014. Of the remaining decks that are tabulated, 10.52% (Elves, D&T, Jund) run no Brainstorms at all, and the 41.07% accounts for almost all mainstream blue archetypes (RUG, BUG, and UWR Delver, Miracles, Shardless BUG, Sneak and Show, ANT, Deathblade, and Stoneblade). The remaining 47.38% of top 8 decks, comprising almost half of the meta, is more than half non-Brainstorm decks like Dredge, MUD, and Burn, though none makes up more than 3% of the top 8 metagame. There may be more Brainstorm than non-Brainstorm decks, but that's a testament to how powerful an enabler of diverse archetypes Brainstorm is than it is an indictment of its brokenness.

[Barook]

According to HSCK's data, which is the only full data for the period as far as I know, 41.1% of top twelve decks run Brainstorm over the ten months from the release of Commander 2013 (i.e., the printing of True-Name Nemesis) in October 2013 to 31 August 2014. Of the remaining decks that are tabulated, 10.52% (Elves, D&T, Jund) run no Brainstorms at all, and the 41.07% accounts for almost all mainstream blue archetypes (RUG, BUG, and UWR Delver, Miracles, Shardless BUG, Sneak and Show, ANT, Deathblade, and Stoneblade). The remaining 47.38% of top 8 decks, comprising almost half of the meta, is more than half non-Brainstorm decks like Dredge, MUD, and Burn, though none makes up more than 3% of the top 8 metagame. There may be more Brainstorm than non-Brainstorm decks, but that's a testament to how powerful an enabler of diverse archetypes Brainstorm is than it is an indictment of its brokenness.

Aren't you just cherry-picking data to your liking while bending the statement? The rest of the meta also contains Brainstorm decks like Reanimator which you tried to lump into your 47.38% part. Even if there are over 20% Brainstorm decks in there, it also makes up a significant part of the meta, which your just tried to brush off like that.

You can also read the data in a way that Brainstorm decks significantly outperform non-Brainstorm decks.

Otherwise, Top 8s wouldn't be close to the ~70% Brainstorm representation in Paper magic. Same for MTGO with ~68%.

[HSCK]

I feel like data only does not really matter for that camp unfortunately. Or that somehow classifying all decks that have Brainstorm as the the same makes any sense. I'd rather see the 3 most extreme poles of the format banned.

[Ellomdian]

Blue is a $2500-$4000 investment in Legacy. Many non-blue competitive lists are $600-$2000. One of the reasons we're going to get an explosion of UR Delver at this point is that it can be built for $1600-$2000 depending on whether you already own the fetches and it has most of the blue power in it.

Other than the fact you just contradicted yourself...

Wasteland, Gaea's Cradle, and Tabernacle at Pendril Vale would all like to have a chat with you. While Blue (and Black) largely invoke a small premium (percentage wise) on cards, the cost of Legacy is high, whether you are playing Blue Control or Green Combo.

[Dice_Box]

TGC mid has my Elves at 1840, U/R only costs costs a touch more at 2050. The point is valid.

[ahg113]

I feel like data only does not really matter for that camp unfortunately. Or that somehow classifying all decks that have Brainstorm as the the same makes any sense. I'd rather see the 3 most extreme poles of the format banned.

Numbers don't lie, people do.

What are the 3 most extreme poles of the format that you would like to see banned?

[Lemnear]

Numbers don't lie, people do.

What are the 3 most extreme poles of the format that you would like to see banned?

According to the logic of banning the extreme performers and with Miracles, Elves, BUG and D&T being the top 4 decks to beat, doesn't that result in having SFM, Cradle, Delver, DRS and SDT among the top 10 choices to ban? ;)

I'm just waiting for the usual torchwaving on combo

[Meekrab]

As much as some people want Brainstorm to be part of the first or second groups, it's not; no deck has Brainstorm as its primary strategy, and a single resolved Brainstorm isn't anywhere near the power level of a single resolved Ancestral, Balance, or Tinker. While Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage, its restriction was essentially the cost of having Gush unrestricted, something that isn't really on the table for Legacy as far as we know, and I think that's a far more reasonable and even interesting discussion than the one we're having now.

When's the last time anybody resolved Balance and had it be worth one good damn?

Am I right in thinking that if upwards of 95% of the only format it's legal in doesn't even play the card, maybe it should be revisted?

[Lemnear]

When's the last time anybody resolved Balance and had it be worth one good damn?

Am I right in thinking that if upwards of 95% of the only format it's legal in doesn't even play the card, maybe it should be revisted?

Look at Vintage: You drop your mananrocks and artifacts onto the field, pay 1W for a Mindtwist + Wrath of God (+Armageddon). Have done this dozens of time in old Vintage 5c Staxx. Due to the fact that Miracles runs out of handcards pretty fast and has their lock-components not affected, don't you think Balance would be silly. Stop dumb and lazy format comparison to have a point. Just because Time Vault and the Vintage Manarocks are banned in Legacy doesn't mean Tinker is fine either and even Tinker isn't the threat anymore it was 2004 because the format got more attached to creatures and therefore also the removal for these increased.

[Nielsie]

What constraints? They are already running a manabase which gets absurd within 3-4 turns if not immediately molested by landdestruction. There is no adjustment to be made to run Jar. SDT + Jar would just make these decks pretty consistant, Having no color-restriction, 5+ mana by turn 5 and drawing 8 cards per turn makes any non-combo deck without wastelands near unplayable. Jar gets around the natural weakness of those decks which is running out of handcards pretty fast and going into a shabby topdeck-mode.

The constraints are your mana-ramping. You need a very fishy manabase and often you need to go all in with your manaramping spells, there is nothing so frustrating as spending your three mana from Monolith on a spell that gets countered or watching your Metalworker die from a Lighting Bolt or whatever. There are so many powerfull things in Magic but once it's something not-blue it gets or stays banned too easily. I understand that workshop is banned because that would be crazy in MUD, but Memory Jar is something I would like to see being tested in Legacy. They can always ban it again...

On the Brainstorm discussion: isn't Mental Misstep banned because it was used by all the top-placing decks? What is the difference between Brainstorm and Mental Misstep in this regard?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

On the Brainstorm discussion: isn't Mental Misstep banned because it was used by all the top-placing decks? What is the difference between Brainstorm and Mental Misstep in this regard?

Brainstorm is the most skill-intensive thing in history of mankind.

[Gheizen64]

Brainstorm is the most skill-intensive thing in history of mankind.

If Brainstorm get banned everyone would just play modern.

[Zombie]

If Brainstorm get banned everyone would just play modern.

Absolutely. Then they'd realize Ponder and Preordain are banned and get back posthaste.

[Lemnear]

The constraints are your mana-ramping. You need a very fishy manabase and often you need to go all in with your manaramping spells, there is nothing so frustrating as spending your three mana from Monolith on a spell that gets countered or watching your Metalworker die from a Lighting Bolt or whatever. There are so many powerfull things in Magic but once it's something not-blue it gets or stays banned too easily. I understand that workshop is banned because that would be crazy in MUD, but Memory Jar is something I would like to see being tested in Legacy. They can always ban it again...

On the Brainstorm discussion: isn't Mental Misstep banned because it was used by all the top-placing decks? What is the difference between Brainstorm and Mental Misstep in this regard?

Who said anything about Metalworker and Monolith? I would go as far saying that both are outdated since Cloudpost/Glimmerpost/Vesuva/Expedition Map came together and ramp beyond the realms of both artifacts by turn 4 without being affected by counter or creature/artifact removal.

WotC isn't unbanning things, just to re-ban them shortly later. Do you understand that this would let them look like idiots? This isn't fucking YuGiOh, banning, unrestricting and restricting the same cards 3 times a year

Misstep was banned because it made 1cc spells unplayable, Legacy turn 1s hilarious (misstep your mistep on my Ponder), killed a bunch of combo decks like storm and with Snapcaster spoilered it woild have gotten even worse

[Barook]

Absolutely. Then they'd realize Ponder and Preordain are banned and get back posthaste.

I think his statement was ironic since one of the standard phrases of Brainstorm defenders is "Don't like Brainstorm? Go play Modern!".

On the Brainstorm discussion: isn't Mental Misstep banned because it was used by all the top-placing decks? What is the difference between Brainstorm and Mental Misstep in this regard?

Not much. Both push the format into being blue.

The only difference is that Brainstorm roughly averages at 68% or so while MM put up ~73% on average during its heydays. Give the trend of putting more and more blue bullshit into the format (with DDT and TC being the latest additions), it can't be that long until this number is reached or even surpassed. The real bullshit would start if it stayed legal at that level, given the official reasoning for the MM ban from Wizards.

[HSCK]

Numbers don't lie, people do.

What are the 3 most extreme poles of the format that you would like to see banned?

I think Delver, Terminus, and Show and Tell are the 3 most constraining cards in the format honestly.

[Zombie]

I think Delver, Terminus, and Show and Tell are the 3 most constraining cards in the format honestly.

As an Elves player, please ban those >:D