Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
I see merits in both arguments of Finn's and yours.
I am sure as innocent as Brainstorm still appears to many people today, the banning of Cruise, Dig, and Top was not intended to save Brainstorm. However, all the blatant overpowered cards people pointed to were banned, and they still do not realize Brainstorm is THE culprit, and that's why the past lessons are so valuable.
Would Cruise be still broken with Brainstorm banned? Likely, but it is not an excuse for Brainstorm being safe. Moreover, a lot of cards are considered broken in Modern, but completely fine in Legacy, e.g., mana accelerators, Artifact lands, and what, I found Jitte is banned in Modern! The idea to make Modern slower makes Cruise a much more powerful card. Remember there were arguments fast Legacy combos with consistency (reads Brainstorm) keep Treasure Cruise in check. Again, not arguing Cruise would be safe for Legacy, but rather a comparison with Modern does not tell much.
You also agree Top is more clear cut that would be perfectly fine in Legacy without Brainstorm. I did not shed tears for Cruise or Dig as they are at least blue, but Top is a big loss for the format. By depriving other colours an efficient (and fair) card selection tool, the necessity for blue is even more (or you go more linear and redundant). I hope Top can serve as a big lesson for Legacy, and Brainstorm can be dealt with before more mistakes happen.
That sounds less like "its oppressive" and more like "I dont like it".
Deathrite Shaman is bannable because of "grumble grumble brainstorm grumble grumble"? Whats the correlation there? The way you worded this makes it sound like you believe there are a huge number of banned cards that would be fine without brainstorm. I can think of one.
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It's amazing people still get a kick from pointing out how good fetchlands are with DRS and cantrips etc. It's like it's some secret that they're graciously unveiling for the rest of us.
'Brainstorm and DRS are very powerful cards...'
'ACKSHUALLY'
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Brainstorm and DRS, yes, but the others not so much.
Even without an external shuffle source, Ponder is insane. It gives you so much card selection for so little investment. Certainly it gets better when you can look at the top 3, take the 1-2 you want, and then shuffle away the chaff with a fetch, but it's still an amazing card without fetches. It's a high pick even in (powered) cube.
The Delve spells are an interesting case as well; I'm not certain fetchlands are what make them broken. While every fetch activation makes a pseudo-Lotus Petal, that alone isn't going to fuel Delve spells all that quickly. Cheap/efficient spells (including cantrips) fill up the yard so much faster than 1 land drop a turn could ever hope to. The example of Khans/BFZ standard supports this line of thought; practically every deck was running 10+ fetches and the Delve spells weren't broken in the least. When the format revolves around 3-5 CMC creatures, graveyards just aren't filled as quickly as in formats that center around 1 CMC spells (and retarded shit like GitGud Probe).
Without the ability to cherrypick and shuffle away the rest, Ponder would be significantly worse and i would go as far and start comparing it Preordain in terms of powerlevel.
Delve spells are indeed a more complex case as they are just the top of the pyramid build by Brainstorm, Ponder, Probe and Fetchlands. I feel its more like Fetches break the cantrips which create the groundwork for Delve with the ever same [T1 - Fetch, Ponder] + [T2 - Brainstorm, fetch].
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“Treating dandruff by decapitation”
No, you couldn't accurately say it about Probe. Because the statement was about cards banned in Legacy; as Gitaxian Probe wasn't banned in Legacy, arguing "the banning of Gitaxian Probe in Legacy was not a way to avoid banning Brainstorm" is a complete non sequitur because Gitaxian Probe isn't banned.
Are you confused by his statement, or my response?
My argument was that it was goofy to argue that Treasure Cruise was banned to avoid banning Brainstorm when one can point out that Treasure Cruise was able to be insanely good with much weaker cantrips. Then they said "couldn't this argument apply to Gitaxian Probe?" The answer is no, because Gitaxian Probe isn't banned, so of course it doesn't apply. So, essentially, the argument is:
"Treasure Cruise wasn't banned to avoid banning Brainstorm, which can be demonstrated by Treasure Cruise being insane in Modern, where it didn't have Brainstorm."
To try to argue this could be used with Gitaxian Probe would be saying "Gitaxian Probe wasn't banned to avoid banning Brainstorm..." which doesn't make sense because Gitaxian Probe isn't banned. Unless I'm misunderstanding what they were saying?
Why overcomplicate things then the actual state of affairs is so blatantly obvious? BS, Probe, Ponder are all broken beyond repair and need to be removed from the format asap.
I think it's undeniable, that Brainstorm and Ponder are warping the format around themselves, if paired with free shuffle effects. There is also no question that decks without these tools suffer from variance significantly more, which is relevant in tournaments.
There is only disagreement about the consequences towards the format and solutions.
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Except you know, the vast majority of people actually playing the format. The posters in this thread should just make their own legacy without all those cards and be joined by the five other people that might play it.
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