View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21061
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by porcupinetreeman View Post
    Ban:

    Brainstorm
    Ponder
    Show and Tell
    Dark Depths
    Griselbrand
    Quote Originally Posted by WashableWater1 View Post
    Even in the world where this was a change that would lead to a more balanced format, it would kill the format.





    Your non-blue decks fall into two categories, raw power (i.e. DnT) and tutoring (I.e. elves). These strategies are viable, but there’s a movement to misrepresent the format as them being not even close to viable compared to cantrip based strategies.
    This would not kill the format, it would open it up for more viable decks. Many decks in the new and developmental would be playable.

  2. #21062
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by porcupinetreeman View Post
    This would not kill the format, it would open it up for more viable decks. Many decks in the new and developmental would be playable.
    I think it's a creative debate on a hyopthetical scenario, but also a pointless one after all, given that WotC has already declared the cantrip shell as the holy cow of the format.
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  3. #21063
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by porcupinetreeman View Post
    This would not kill the format, it would open it up for more viable decks. Many decks in the new and developmental would be playable.
    Still of the opinion that I'd rather ban the dumbfuck payoff cards (since wotc doesn't print as many abject dumbfuck cards like Emralolol/Griseltard/Omnidrool/EtI, possibly Jin-Gitaxias) and see if S&T can still exist with saner payoff cards even though I don't like the deck at all (engine combo all day for me). There's no dearth of powerful but less abjectly stupid fat available.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  4. #21064
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I don't think all cantrips are holy, just brainstorm.
    -rob

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by porcupinetreeman View Post
    This would not kill the format, it would open it up for more viable decks. Many decks in the new and developmental would be playable.
    Many decks NOT in the new and developmental forums would be unplayable. You're not solving anything by switching which decks are dominant and which ones don't exist as a real thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  6. #21066

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    i think the exceptions are show and tell, infernal tutor, snapcaster mage and terminus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    non-blue decks need to jump through hoops for game plan consistency and mana consistency or for finding singleton cards. with xerox strategies, it becomes significantly easier. (and to a lesser extent how snapcaster mage enables them more.)
    I mean, I think this is true, but a little overstated. For instance:

    Lands: Gamble, Life From the Loam, Crop Rotation
    DNT: Recuiter, Stoneforge, Vial (mana consistency rather than finding cards)
    Elves: Green Sun's Zenith, Natural Order, Glimpse of Nature, Symbiote/Visionary
    Depths: Confidant, Crop Rotation, Expedition Map, Into the North, Life From the Loam, Sylvan Scrying, Sylvan Library
    BR Reanimator: Entomb, Faithless Looting
    Burn: literally just playing 40 copies of the same card

    Sure, cantrips are obviously a powerful engine for finding cards/fixing mana, but other decks have plenty of options as well.

    P.S. Also I loved your secret santa package! thanks again!

    Quote Originally Posted by porcupinetreeman View Post
    This would not kill the format, it would open it up for more viable decks. Many decks in the new and developmental would be playable.
    Which decks do you think would be playable? Why do you think they would be able to beat DnT, or Reanimator, or Lands, or Elves? These decks are powerful now and still would be after the banning, there's no guarantee that new brews would get any better.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you, had an issue on Discord by the name of Wumpas. It is why you can not find and active invite to the Lands channel right now. Sigh.

    Bummer dude!

    No, the point I am making is one data point is not useful for holding and defending an argument. But I think we have gotten past this now.

    Yes, I get what you're trying to say. I still think it's strange to describe the aggregate of all the TC tournaments for a month as a "single point" of data, but I understand that you mean "one month is one month, here today, gone tomorrow (except for cantrips)."


    Eldrazi just eats the format. I do not even bother with it anymore, its going to play on its axis and I actually do not like playing the deck. I love playing against it, but not with it. It is the apex of hating out the taget and removing options, but it feels so very basic and brutal. There is no grace to this deck. I agree.

    We have really only two decks here I feel are "Independent" of Blue. You can say I am moving the goalposts, sure, but the point stands.

    I don't play modern for similar reasons (arguably, there are different decks there, but none of them appeal to me), which seems to reflect how you feel about the non-blue options in Legacy, so I empathize.

    However, I think that says more about your tastes and mine than it does about the format - the bottom line is, these decks are non-blue and they are playable, so it is false to say that you can only play blue in Legacy. Even if you or I personally don't want to play those decks, people can, and they are viable.


    But this is not the kind of format I quoted, its decks that are Blue and it is suggested decks made to attack Blue. Goblins, Mav and Zoo where not custom built from the ground up to answer RUG for example, but DnT and Eldrazi really kind of are. Its sad thats the world we are in now.

    True, the non-blue decks definitely have to have a plan for fighting blue decks. I will concede this point.

    Honestly, these days I do not know anymore. I would be happy to play 5 rounds against 5 different things if able and not 3 rounds of Blue Midrange. I guess thats my answer? Not much of one I know.

    Yep, makes sense. I'm sorry you're seeing the same few decks every round! I see a lot of different decks when I go to events, maybe you're just better than me and spending more time in the X-0 bracket

    Then report me. If you feel I am out of line, and I may be, then send it up the chain. I am not the top of the food chain, you have others you can talk to. Feel free to do so, I don't mind.

    I don't think I need to, this post was much more like your usual chill ones.

    I have ripped into Lem in the past for this as well when he quoted a SGC with 8 Brainstorm decks.

    See, I agree in this case - I would characterize one tournament as a single data point. I think that's meaningfully different from the TC data, which is many tournaments, and those many points make up a DTB. I know you disagree, so I won't harp on it.

    We argued for a long time about if Miracles needed to be taken down. 82% of the decks life has been in the DTB section of this site and people still debate if it needed a ban.

    That's a good run! For me, it was a couple of things:

    1. The deck was super fun to play, there's nothing like it in other formats, especially when you could still play Top.

    2. If we have to have a "best deck," which I think we do in Legacy, I think Miracles was as benevolent a king as you could ask for. It was low variance, skill testing, and beatable, so it allowed players to play well and rise to the top, but lose if they played too slow or were bad.

    I'd much rather have a deck like that, or even Grixis Delver for similar reasons, because at the end of the day they make the format feel more like a game and less like a coinflip. If reanimator, or, God Forbid, Eldrazi, were the best deck in the format, I think that would be a bad look for Legacy. I know a lot of people hate "cantrip and Force fair decks," but other people like to play those decks, and ultimately those decks are playing Magic.

    That being said, 84% of lifetime is pretty impressive. I won't lie, it's probably not tenable to argue that something didn't need a ban, but...the deck was just so sexy!
    Last edited by taconaut; 01-02-2019 at 08:37 AM.

  7. #21067

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    Still of the opinion that I'd rather ban the dumbfuck payoff cards (since wotc doesn't print as many abject dumbfuck cards like Emralolol/Griseltard/Omnidrool/EtI, possibly Jin-Gitaxias) and see if S&T can still exist with saner payoff cards even though I don't like the deck at all (engine combo all day for me). There's no dearth of powerful but less abjectly stupid fat available.
    All these cards are fine if they're paid for with mana. They're not inherently broken - they're only broken if you find a way to cheat them into play, which is true of any card the effect of which is worth a bunch of mana (it's actually a tautology : any effect worth a bunch of mana is broken at very few mana).

    On the other hand, the enablers that can cheat any card into play are breaking the whole principle of mana cost. If there is any culprit (and I said if), they are.
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  8. #21068

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by porcupinetreeman View Post
    This would not kill the format, it would open it up for more viable decks. Many decks in the new and developmental would be playable.
    Whether banning a bunch of decks would make other decks better is debatable, but that isn't why it would kill the format. There is an implied premise here which I think is false; the idea that when someones deck gets banned, they will find another one. While some people may adopt and play Belcher or Oops, there are people who will instead choose to not play any more. Each ban cycle takes some number of players with it. There are cases such as Top getting banned, where there were people leaving because of the targeted deck already, but this is not the case currently. Banning so many cards at once out of so many decks, decks that people want to and enjoy playing, would cause a huge number of players to leave rather than building Jund or something. I honestly believe that the number of people that would leave that the format would be so great that there would not be enough people to keep the format afloat.

  9. #21069
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It could also bring people back. I for once shelved my cards for the most part before Dig was banned because the card was incredibly stupid. When it got the axe I was reinvigorated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
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    Top quality german restraint there.

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  10. #21070
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It would be great to pick up All Spells again without having to worry about Force of Will. That'd show all the Chalice-Evil Eyes, Darklands, and Cleric Tribal people how to play Real Maygick.

    /sarcasm. Except not really.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  11. #21071
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I mean, I think this is true, but a little overstated. For instance:

    Lands: Gamble, Life From the Loam, Crop Rotation
    DNT: Recuiter, Stoneforge, Vial (mana consistency rather than finding cards)
    Elves: Green Sun's Zenith, Natural Order, Glimpse of Nature, Symbiote/Visionary
    Depths: Confidant, Crop Rotation, Expedition Map, Into the North, Life From the Loam, Sylvan Scrying, Sylvan Library
    BR Reanimator: Entomb, Faithless Looting
    Burn: literally just playing 40 copies of the same card

    Sure, cantrips are obviously a powerful engine for finding cards/fixing mana, but other decks have plenty of options as well.
    I think this was a great post. I agree with the premise of what mistercakes is saying, but I think you're dead-on by calling it a just a little overstated. What this does, in a very specific and brief way, is show how to attain consistency in a non-blue deck. Don't get the wrong impression that I'm criticizing mistercakes, far from it.
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  12. #21072
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    the difference here is that you need very niche cards to be useful outside of blue for consistency. throw most of those cards outside of those mentioned decks and most of them just crap all over themselves. cards like brainstorm/ponder could actually be:

    Lands: Gamble, Life From the Loam, Crop Rotation (brainstorm doesn't really work here, but it wouldn't be a stretch if somebody tried)
    DNT: Recuiter, Stoneforge, Vial (mana consistency rather than finding cards) (they don't work here b/c of mostly thalia and wasteland/port)
    Elves: Green Sun's Zenith, Natural Order, Glimpse of Nature, Symbiote/Visionary (elves cantrips work best inside elves, and terrible outside of elves)
    Depths: Confidant, Crop Rotation, Expedition Map, Into the North, Life From the Loam, Sylvan Scrying, Sylvan Library (bug variants exist with brainstorm, and those cards are generally terrible outside of this strategy)
    BR Reanimator: Entomb, Faithless Looting (UB variant exists).
    burn: see UR delver

    the point is that unless if you find something with a very precise synergy for the deck, you might as well just play brainstorm/ponder. your only real deckbuilding constraints are if you are playing chalice, thalia, and maybe the few decks where it just doesn't work. (eg. elves, dredge, specifically BR reanimator, rg lands.)

    i really am not against brainstorm. it's a horribly one-sided effect, but it is unique and that's fine. ponder on the other hand is just a lazy design and would have been fine in a non-fetchland world.

    preordain is slightly worse than ponder (although sometimes it's played incorrectly over ponder). i suspect getting rid of ponder and preordain would give nonblue decks a very fair shot at having similar consistency. brainstorm alone (especially with snapcaster) allows for this > 20 lands in a control deck. this is one of the issues with why blue is much better.
    -rob

  13. #21073

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I think this was a great post.
    Thanks for the ups, Mr. Safety. I try to be even-handed in my posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    The difference here is that you need very niche cards to be useful outside of blue for consistency. throw most of those cards outside of those mentioned decks and most of them just crap all over themselves.

    The point is, unless you find something with a very precise synergy for the deck, you might as well just play Brainstorm/Ponder.
    Yes, that's the nature of the beast. The precise synergies allow other colors to trade broad, flexible application for power level - cantrips sometimes find you what you need, whereas Green Sun's Zenith will always find you a particular guy and put it into play. Same with Gamble - if your deck's particular synergies make you ambivalent about where the card you tutor ends up, it's much better than hoping to hit it with Ponder.

    I played some games of ANT yesterday, and in several of the games, I would have won immediately if any of my cantrips had hit an Infernal Tutor. Unfortunately, all of them saw something like "Ponder, Preordain, Land," which is something cantrip detractors don't always acknowledge. Gamble will always find you Life From the Loam one way or another, and Green Sun's Zenith will always get your Arbor on 0, Symbiote on 1, and Rec Sage on 3.

    It turns out that over may games, you can get enough value out of the selection of the cantrips to get there (and, if we're being honest, it's not that hard to get that value, cantrip decks are obviously good); it's just a matter of deciding whether you want to play the odds or make up for it with individual power-level.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    Preordain is slightly worse than Ponder (although sometimes it's played incorrectly over Ponder). I suspect getting rid of Ponder and Preordain would give non-blue decks a very fair shot at having similar consistency.
    As much as I hate playing Preordain, I think that getting rid of Preordain and Ponder in Legacy would make cantrip decks awful, and dogs to the other DTBs. Hell, just getting rid of Probe made Storm feel much clunkier to me personally... (the deck is fine, I just hate Preordain so much...)

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    Brainstorm alone (especially with snapcaster) allows for this > 20 lands in a control deck.
    I'm not sure what you mean by this - is that supposed to be a "less-than" sign instead? Could you elaborate?

  14. #21074
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    Thanks for the ups, Mr. Safety. I try to be even-handed in my posts.



    Yes, that's the nature of the beast. The precise synergies allow other colors to trade broad, flexible application for power level - cantrips sometimes find you what you need, whereas Green Sun's Zenith will always find you a particular guy and put it into play. Same with Gamble - if your deck's particular synergies make you ambivalent about where the card you tutor ends up, it's much better than hoping to hit it with Ponder.

    I played some games of ANT yesterday, and in several of the games, I would have won immediately if any of my cantrips had hit an Infernal Tutor. Unfortunately, all of them saw something like "Ponder, Preordain, Land," which is something cantrip detractors don't always acknowledge. Gamble will always find you Life From the Loam one way or another, and Green Sun's Zenith will always get your Arbor on 0, Symbiote on 1, and Rec Sage on 3.

    It turns out that over may games, you can get enough value out of the selection of the cantrips to get there (and, if we're being honest, it's not that hard to get that value, cantrip decks are obviously good); it's just a matter of deciding whether you want to play the odds or make up for it with individual power-level.



    As much as I hate playing Preordain, I think that getting rid of Preordain and Ponder in Legacy would make cantrip decks awful, and dogs to the other DTBs. Hell, just getting rid of Probe made Storm feel much clunkier to me personally... (the deck is fine, I just hate Preordain so much...)



    I'm not sure what you mean by this - is that supposed to be a "less-than" sign instead? Could you elaborate?
    oops! sorry about that. < :)

    the more generalized point i'm making about the cantrips is not the precision to find a single card, but to have a general consistency. i don't claim that ponder is to have the same effect as gamble, or gsz, or even burning wish/infernal tutor. what it does allow you to do is keep 1 land hands, and that is also what brainstorm allows you to do. this is why the blue decks tend to be a lot safer when going to many round tournaments over non-blue. the fact that a deck like ANT/show and tell is able to use brainstorm/ponder/sometimes preordain as a semi-tutor just shows the abuse of these cards.

    miracles, delver, and grixis are more appropriate examples of how they abuse the general purpose of those cantrips.
    -rob

  15. #21075
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    the difference here is that you need very niche cards to be useful outside of blue for consistency. throw most of those cards outside of those mentioned decks and most of them just crap all over themselves.
    Brainstorm is also close to crap all by itself without fetchlands or shuffle effects to make it great. There is also a case to be made that there are specific cantrip decks that are the best at leveraging their power level. Other decks play them, but they aren't the best cantrip-engine decks. At one time in history we all needed to be aware of consistency regardless of blue's ability to smooth it out. I'm not trying to rehash old arguments, but I just want to point out that imagining cramming brainstorm into any old deck makes it better is a false premise. There are decks that use cantrips to their fullest potential, all others are sub-par in power level.

    I would argue that these are the best cantrip decks:

    Grixis Delver
    Miracles
    Grixis Control
    Storm
    Show and Tell

    All the other decks that play cantrips do so to give a crutch to a weaker strategy. A weaker strategy at-large can win games because of consistency, but we are all lying to ourselves if we think playing decks other than those is optimal. We have a crossover effect to these decks, all of them doing the same filtering to win in a different manner, but all are doing something powerful enough that no amount of consistency can compensate for a lesser strategy. Is the real issue, perceived mind you, that blue has the best engine that also coincidentally allows for 5 very powerful decks and other lower-powered decks to quasi-compete?

    Lets look at other engines like Life from the Loam: Lands and Aggro Loam. Two powerful decks, one in and out of DTB. Lion's Eye Diamond: Storm variants, Dredge, Belcher, All Spells. Powers 5 recognizable decks (definitely more, but Doomsday doesn't count anymore) with Storm going in/out of DTB and Dredge always on the cusp of DTB in the right metagame. Green Sun's Zenith: Elves, Nic Fit, Bant. Elves is sometimes a DTB. Is the real outcry because the blue cantrip engine has more viable decks? If you're going on pure power level, some of the non-optimal cantrip decks are pretty weak compared to the non-cantrip decks. Just look at RUG Delver as an example and how much it struggles against the DTB. It's actually, in my premise here, a bad cantrip deck. It's not as powerful as the 5 decks listed above. The closest to it is Grixis Delver, but that deck has less conditional threats and better removal. Strict upgrade territory. RUG Delver is officially a meta-deck now, just like Dredge (bold words, I know.) It attacks the game in a specific way that is either good in the metagame or not, no amount of filtering can make up for it's lack of power. It's a strictly worse cantrip-based deck compared to the others. There are decks that don't play blue that are more consistent than a bad cantrip deck, achieving it through other engines.

    TL, DR - It is my opinion that there will always be 5 (or so) cantrip driven decks that are the most powerful at enabling that engine in the format and 3-4 non-blue decks that can also compete. I don't see this as a problem, just seeing reality for what it is. Fuck it all, Depths is a DTB currently and you can build a budget version for less than $500. You don't have to play blue to win in legacy. If you want to play blue in legacy, fall in line with what the format demands you to do: play one of the 5 decks above or accept a lower power level in your deck choice (whatever that choice is, based on fun or whatever other metric.) Cantrips can only cover so much of the gap in power level.
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  16. #21076
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    i don't need a rant here. blue decks are able to more safely keep hands that would require mulligans. unfortunately those decks are converging each year on becoming the same good-stuff deck.

    you can roll the dice with a deck like turbodepths or dredge, but if you want to consistently win tournaments (large ones), stick to a brainstorm or ponder deck, preferably one of the 5 you mentioned.

    i would simply prefer a little bit more of the randomness which is inherent to card games to be a little more present.
    -rob

  17. #21077
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    i don't need a rant here.
    Sorry about that...didn't mean to offend. I also wasn't targeting you specifically, just the argument itself (which has been posited by many.)

    i would simply prefer a little bit more of the randomness which is inherent to card games to be a little more present.
    You're not alone. I think most, even some diehard blue players, would agree.
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  18. #21078

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    Blue decks are able to more safely keep hands that would require mulligans. Unfortunately, those decks are converging each year on becoming the same good-stuff deck.
    Are Storm, Miracles, Grixis, and Sneak and Show really converging? Are they really goodstuff decks? I don't think this claim bears scrutiny. If you mean that the only essentially viable midrange deck with blue is Grixis, then sure. But blue decks are clearly diverse, even if they share cantrips.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    I would simply prefer a little bit more of the randomness which is inherent to card games to be a little more present.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    You're not alone. I think most, even some diehard blue players, would agree.
    Really? Why?

    So many people seem to want this, and I just don't get it.

    I wish Magic had less variance, there's already a ton of it. Part of the reason Legacy is more interesting than other formats is that you have fewer games where you just don't get to play - cards like cantrips make it possible to have meaningful games that aren't just decided by whether you drew the right lands or not.

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    These posts have been some of the most interesting and insightful I've read in this thread. That may be a low bar, but I'm really enjoying this discussion, and it's a lot more engaging and analytical than most forum fare. Thank you all for your thoughts! And by all means continue, but I have a prediction apropos of nothing.

    I'm going to go out on a limb and say I think that the upcoming Chancellor of the Scry 3 will be banned.

    The Source's thoughts?
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  20. #21080

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    Are Storm, Miracles, Grixis, and Sneak and Show really converging? Are they really goodstuff decks? I don't think this claim bears scrutiny. If you mean that the only essentially viable midrange deck with blue is Grixis, then sure. But blue decks are clearly diverse, even if they share cantrips.





    Really? Why?

    So many people seem to want this, and I just don't get it.

    I wish Magic had less variance, there's already a ton of it. Part of the reason Legacy is more interesting than other formats is that you have fewer games where you just don't get to play - cards like cantrips make it possible to have meaningful games that aren't just decided by whether you drew the right lands or not.
    If you don't want variance, play chess.

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