All B/R update speculation.

[Ace/Homebrew]

the joke





your head

[Rascalyote]

>fighting attrition battle
>leave opponent with empty board other than lands and 2 blanks in hand
>i have DRS and 4 spirit tokens on board
>opponent topdecks TNN
>opponent topdecks second TNN

Fuck this shit card.

You win this race so hard, unless you're at such a lower life total you can just replace TNN with like ... bolt bolt?

[Crimhead]

Wizard's have shown themselves to be at least consistent in their dumb decisions. To the point now the fact that it wouldn't make any sense is a stronger indicator that it will in fact happen.

Are we talking about the same format?
When has there ever been a lame-duck ban in Legacy?

• SDT ban effectively dethroned Miracles and opened the meta.
• DTT Ban was effective in curbing Omnitell.
• TC ban took a bite out of the UR(x) Tempo decks.
• SotF ban killed the target deck.

I can only assume you are using the management of other formats as your basis here? WotC have succeeded in not f'ing up Legacy with bans to date (and they have also demonstrated extreme reluctance, especially for established format staples).

[maharis]

You win this race so hard, unless you're at such a lower life total you can just replace TNN with like ... bolt bolt?

I’m just being salty but I was using my life total as a resource while I set up and just got totally punished by the topdeck. It was 18 to 11 I believe.

Yes, I should’ve been able to buy myself time with my board. But you can’t chump block, you cant have a zillion ways to kill it mb, it’s in the same deck as bolt so whatever. It’s just miserable. Worse, I felt like I should just be playing it, not because it does anything interesting, but because it just is the best thing to do at 3 in a fair deck. Totally warping and uninteresting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rascalyote]

I’m just being salty but I was using my life total as a resource while I set up and just got totally punished by the topdeck. It was 18 to 11 I believe.

Yes, I should’ve been able to buy myself time with my board. But you can’t chump block, you cant have a zillion ways to kill it mb, it’s in the same deck as bolt so whatever. It’s just miserable. Worse, I felt like I should just be playing it, not because it does anything interesting, but because it just is the best thing to do at 3 in a fair deck. Totally warping and uninteresting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can see where you're coming from tbh, I started playing Dark Depths again in my deck so I don't have to deal with all this TNN stuff.

[Dice_Box]

I feel that every DTB requires information to play optimally, which implies this distinction does not exclude any decks, and is therefore not relevant.

While that is true there is a not unsubstantial list of decks who's only information in a game is going to be what it's pilot can gleam in real time. The top preforming decks that fit this category are Elves (preboard), Lands, DnT and Eldrazi.

These decks all appear to forgo information gathering for redundancy and other powerful effects such as Tutors, Tinker and Recall.

Let's not talk about banning something until a deck has been told dog for at least 2 years. That seems to be about the time line Wizards works on.

[Stevestamopz]

Maybe a better analogy would have been Delver of Secrets and Monastery Swiftspear replacing Wild Nacatl and Kird Ape?

Anyway, yes, you missed something. The point went over your head.

Back when Goyf was printed, the arguments for banning it were not very different conceptually from the arguments against DRS today. It was far more efficient than everything else, and previously playable cards were no longer playable.

Fast forward to today. There has been continuous creature power creep, and the threats continue to become more efficient and more powerful for their cost. DRS is obviously more powerful than Birds of Paradise. It's simply the way power creep works.

The point is, being an efficient threat that sees play in a wide variety of decks isn't a justified reason to ban something. Tarmogoyf was just as ubiquitous back in 2010 as DRS is today.

Yeah nah, I didn't miss anything. You just made a false equivalency and thought it was clever.

Comparing a vanilla beater or a mana dork to a 1 mana planeswalker...

[Crimhead]

.
Comparing a vanilla beater or a mana dork to a 1 mana planeswalker...

In a banned list context, it is relevant which decks a card supports, how ubiguous the card is, and how it might perhaps be pushing too many other cards or play-styles out.

Whether a card is a beater or a walker; 1 mana or 2 mana, doesn't really inform the conversation.

You just made a false equivalency and thought it was clever.

Speaking of thinking false equivalences to be clever, DRS is a utility creature and not a walker. It dies to Plow, Edict, Terminus, and Tabernacle; but you can't just attack it with dudes.

Let's try to be factual here. Better discourse that way, right?

[kinda]

Are we talking about the same format?
When has there ever been a lame-duck ban in Legacy?

• SDT ban effectively dethroned Miracles and opened the meta.
• DTT Ban was effective in curbing Omnitell.
• TC ban took a bite out of the UR(x) Tempo decks.
• SotF ban killed the target deck.

I can only assume you are using the management of other formats as your basis here? WotC have succeeded in not f'ing up Legacy with bans to date (and they have also demonstrated extreme reluctance, especially for established format staples).

Mystical tutor reanimator too. Mental misstep is probably the exception.

[Stevestamopz]

Let's try to be factual here. Better discourse that way, right?

In this thread? Nah man, get out of here.

Also, what is hyperbole?
Drs is the greatest utility creature of all time, sure you got me! It has been referred to many times as the "littlest planeswalker". Attacking my semantics still doesn't mean that comparing DRS to Goyf or Birds is correct. What's that ancient greek quote about attacking how someone said something and not actually what they said?

[Hanni]

Yeah nah, I didn't miss anything. You just made a false equivalency and thought it was clever.

Comparing a vanilla beater or a mana dork to a 1 mana planeswalker...

False equivalency in what way? The comparison had nothing to do with the technical specifications of the cards in question; it was purely an analogy between the efficiency and power level difference between a set of cards. I could have been more drastic and compared Goyf with Wild Mongrel, Arrogant Wurm, Ravenous Baloth, or whatever else instead, which all saw play before Tarmogoyf was printed.

If you have only been playing Legacy since 2014, then I can understand why you don't see the parallels between Goyf in 2008 and DRS today.

Whether the cards are vanilla or have a hundred lines of text is irrelevant to the discussion of power creep. If they print a vanilla 10/10 creature for a single mana with no drawbacks, are you seriously going to believe that it's less OP than DRS because it is vanilla?

DRS is the most efficient and powerful mana dork ever printed, but it's within the power level of Legacy standards. We play in a format with turn 0 Chancellor into turn 1 Griselbrand.

DRS is an overly pushed card that should have had many things changed to make it less powerful. However, none of those things happened, and the card isn't breaking Legacy in half. It sees play in a wide variety of decks, the same way Goyf was jammed into everything a decade ago, but I don't see anything degenerate or format warping as a result.

Delver being the best deck doesn't change in a format without DRS. In fact, Stifle/Waste/Daze get significantly better. So if the intention is to nerf Delver, banning actual Delver is a much more effective ban.

What sort of format do you expect we would have without DRS, and why would that be better for Legacy than what we have right now?

There is always going to be a best deck. At least right now, the best deck is a somewhat fair and balanced deck like Grixis Delver. We have certainly had more miserable 'best deck in format' decks in the past.

[taconaut]

While that is true there is a not unsubstantial list of decks who's only information in a game is going to be what it's pilot can gleam in real time. The top preforming decks that fit this category are Elves (preboard), Lands, DnT and Eldrazi.

These decks all appear to forgo information gathering for redundancy and other powerful effects such as Tutors, Tinker and Recall.

That was exactly my point - if Probe (and the information it provides) is so important, it could shore up that weakness of these decks. Yet, no one plays it, implying it isn't as gamebreakingly powerful as he was implying.

Saying "only decks that can act on extra info can play probe" is a meaningless distinction because every deck benefits from extra information. If getting that information were literally free, as many Probe detractors argue, then a competitive player must avail themselves of it. We know they do not. Therefore, either Legacy players are not competitive (unlikely), or Probe is balanced enough to have reasonable applications in some decks and not others (likely).

I do see you're not advocating a ban though, so it seems like we're on the same page.

Whether the cards are vanilla or have a hundred lines of text is irrelevant to the discussion of power creep. If they print a vanilla 10/10 creature for a single mana with no drawbacks, are you seriously going to believe that it's less OP than DRS because it is vanilla?

I actually agree with all your points about Deathrite Shaman, though this one struck me as an interesting thought experiment - I am actually not sure if a 1 mana 10/10 is more broken than DRS...it doesn't provide grave hate, it doesn't ramp you, it doesn't fix your mana, it might be harder to cast if it's monocolored, it might not have a relevant creature type, it still dies to swords and push, has no evasion, doesn't gain you life...it would certainly see play, but I don't know if it would beat the Deathrite decks.

[Stevestamopz]

False equivalency in what way? The comparison had nothing to do with the technical specifications of the cards in question; it was purely an analogy between the efficiency and power level difference between a set of cards. I could have been more drastic and compared Goyf with Wild Mongrel, Arrogant Wurm, Ravenous Baloth, or whatever else instead, which all saw play before Tarmogoyf was printed.

It's a false equivalency because Goyf is only good at one thing: beating other creature decks not playing Goyf. It doesn't do anything against combo decks itself clock, it doesn't shrink an opposing KotR while undoing Knight's looping wastelands thing. DRS is actually better at beating DnT than Goyf is, and that's the only remaining fair creature deck left. I'm not going to start quoting what DRS does, but it does a hell of a lot more than Goyf does, duh.

If you have only been playing Legacy since 2014, then I can understand why you don't see the parallels between Goyf in 2008 and DRS today.

Whether the cards are vanilla or have a hundred lines of text is irrelevant to the discussion of power creep. If they print a vanilla 10/10 creature for a single mana with no drawbacks, are you seriously going to believe that it's less OP than DRS because it is vanilla?

Close enough, only since the start of 2012. Luckily, I can read about it. Goyf was in memefolk it was in countertop decks. It was still just a finisher and a beatstick. It didn't annihilate almost every other strategy by itself.

People would still say that a 1 mana 10/10 dies to plow/push/decay can be countered/chumped and they would also do my favourite legacy argument of which you have so kindly obliged me with;

BIG BOI 1 mana 10/10 is the most efficient and powerful beater ever printed, but it's within the power level of Legacy standards. We play in a format with turn 0 Chancellor into turn 1 Griselbrand

DRS is an overly pushed card that should have had many things changed to make it less powerful. However, none of those things happened, and the card isn't breaking Legacy in half. It sees play in a wide variety of decks, the same way Goyf was jammed into everything a decade ago, but I don't see anything degenerate or format warping as a result.

Literally every deck that can accommodate a small splash to use DRS does so. Even Aggro-Loam with it's 4 maindeck chalices was playing 1 to Zenith for. What part of this is not format warping. Where Goyf was just a beater for the counter-top decks or the zoo decks, DRS just annihilates all opposing strategies whether you're a mana-denial deck or a Past in Flames deck or a Rite of Flame deck or a Life from the Loam deck or even a Lava Spike deck. Literally the only deck it doesn't really impact is Show and Tell. Context matters.

Delver being the best deck doesn't change in a format without DRS. In fact, Stifle/Waste/Daze get significantly better. So if the intention is to nerf Delver, banning actual Delver is a much more effective ban.

Back you go to this false equivalency of banning vanilla creatures.

What sort of format do you expect we would have without DRS, and why would that be better for Legacy than what we have right now.

It would be a whole lot less boring. Underground Sea -> Deathrite every single game wooooh such an interesting format. Delver or Strix, Counterspells or Discard, True-Name Nemesis or Jace the Mind Sculptor. Wow, what a compelling format.

Fair blue decks are always going to be the best decks, but when the best fair blue deck is immune to almost everything because of 1 card, it disincentives players to bother. Goyf and Birds do not, have not and will not ever provide a deck with the same ridiculous power that DRS does. The card has been a plague for some time and is only getting worse as more and more people realise how OP the card is. Remember when the best thing to do with DRS was to play it in Punishing Jund? LOL

[Crimhead]

Literally every deck that can accommodate a small splash to use DRS does so.

• Lands
• ANT
• LED Dredge
• RBg Reanimator
• Infect
• Turbo Depths
• Thresh

All disagree.

How many decks actually splash a colour for DRS? I'm thinking:

• Maverick
• Grixis
• Czech
• Elves

Also, what is hyperbole?

In this thread it's a tool used to demonize a card that somebody wants banned but cannot provide an objective argument.

DRS is a powerful card, but you seem to want everyone to believe it's more powerful than it actually is.

Attacking my semantics still doesn't mean that comparing DRS to Goyf or Birds is correct. What's that ancient greek quote about attacking how someone said something and not actually what they said?

I'm not attacking your semantics. I'm ridiculing you for complaint about an (alleged) false equivalence in the same breath as making an obvious one yourself.

The comparison, BTW, has nothing to do with the function of the card. It's all about how a card is ubiquitous and pushes certain decks. It's been pointed out several times that these are the only relevant properties of a card in this context. Keep ignoring that and enjoy your campaign I guess.

[Dice_Box]

That was exactly my point - if Probe (and the information it provides) is so important, it could shore up that weakness of these decks. Yet, no one plays it, implying it isn't as gamebreakingly powerful as he was implying.

Saying "only decks that can act on extra info can play probe" is a meaningless distinction because every deck benefits from extra information. If getting that information were literally free, as many Probe detractors argue, then a competitive player must avail themselves of it. We know they do not. Therefore, either Legacy players are not competitive (unlikely), or Probe is balanced enough to have reasonable applications in some decks and not others (likely).

I do see you're not advocating a ban though, so it seems like we're on the same page.

I think this is a little reductive. No deck that plays probe plays it only for the Peek. The information is valued but it alone is never the goal. Some decks play it to generate tokens, to use as mana with Delve or to reduce the deck size in combo builds. These extra features is what gives the card its power and what causes issues for its detractors.

A deck like DnT needs none of these extra features, so it ignores the card. While yes, the information would be valuable as DnT has a surprising amount of instant speed interaction, it gains no auxiliary benefit from playing the card. Therefore it is not a consideration for inclusion. (And Thalia fucks it.) The same holds true for Elves and Lands. The deck on my previous list that I feel would most like to have the information effect alone is Eldrazi. As knowing what lock piece or creature to play early can change the whole Tempo of the game. This ability is left on the cutting room floor not because it's use is not valued but because Chalice is more versatile and effective in the decks game plan.

I'm not arguing for a ban, I do though think that looking at the card as nothing more than an slower and cheaper Peek is reductive and unproductive. If all the card did was Peek with no second hand effects created by deck building I think it would see far less play.

[Stevestamopz]

I can't quote you because you keep editing your comment

Yeah man Deathrite is barely played because storm combo decks don't play it (although I did see people trying it out in Storm) and now you're saying Bug Thresh has never been a thing. Fair enough, fits the theme of your posts. I guess you also forgot to include Turbo Depths in your list of decks that don't play DRS either



Oh wait... what?

You can keep trying to "ridicule" me for referring to DRS as a planeswalker (it clearly is not an actual planeswalker, but it certainly acts like one) and deny that you're attacking how I say things without actually adding to the argument about why DRS shouldn't be banned, but this is still the reality of the format right now.

[Hanni]

It's a false equivalency because Goyf is only good at one thing: beating other creature decks not playing Goyf. It doesn't do anything against combo decks itself clock, it doesn't shrink an opposing KotR while undoing Knight's looping wastelands thing. DRS is actually better at beating DnT than Goyf is, and that's the only remaining fair creature deck left. I'm not going to start quoting what DRS does, but it does a hell of a lot more than Goyf does, duh.

It seems like your still not getting what I'm saying. I'm not comparing Goyf to DRS. I'm comparing Goyf in Legacy in 2008 to DRS in Legacy in 2018.

Close enough, only since the start of 2012. Luckily, I can read about it. Goyf was in memefolk it was in countertop decks. It was still just a finisher and a beatstick. It didn't annihilate almost every other strategy by itself.

Reading about is apparently not enough, else we wouldn't continue to circle around the point I've made. Goyf most certainly did kill off many other archetypes, but it spawned a ton of new ones as well, just like DRS has done. Also understand that my position towards Goyf back then is the same as my position towards DRS now.

People would still say that a 1 mana 10/10 dies to plow/push/decay can be countered/chumped and they would also do my favourite legacy argument of which you have so kindly obliged me with;

My argument for why DRS is okay, and the 10/10 isn't, isn't because it dies to spot removal. My argument in favor of DRS is that even if you don't have an immediate answer for DRS, you don't just lose on the spot. A 10/10 ends the game in two swings if you don't have an answer.

Literally every deck that can accommodate a small splash to use DRS does so. Even Aggro-Loam with it's 4 maindeck chalices was playing 1 to Zenith for. What part of this is not format warping. Where Goyf was just a beater for the counter-top decks or the zoo decks, DRS just annihilates all opposing strategies whether you're a mana-denial deck or a Past in Flames deck or a Rite of Flame deck or a Life from the Loam deck or even a Lava Spike deck. Literally the only deck it doesn't really impact is Show and Tell. Context matters.

Many cards are format warping to an extent. People don't play 1cc artifact removal spells because one of the artifacts you would need to deal with is a Chalice for 1. When I use the term format warping, I don't mean that it has some sort of impact on deckbuilding decisions. I don't use it to mean ubiquitous either; just because many decks play the card doesn't mean it's format warping. Format warping means it enables an archetype that you either play, or you play an archetype that beats it. This isn't Flash; DRS has not created a rock/paper/scissors format.

Back you go to this false equivalency of banning vanilla creatures.

Maybe my point was unecessary to make since you didn't mention Grixis Delver being a reason to ban DRS in our current discussion, but I've seen your complaints about that in this thread before, so I made the point anyway. I also don't understand your fascination with the word vanilla, either, but whatever.

It would be a whole lot less boring. Underground Sea -> Deathrite every single game wooooh such an interesting format. Delver or Strix, Counterspells or Discard, True-Name Nemesis or Jace the Mind Sculptor. Wow, what a compelling format.

So your complaint is actually about the prevalence of blue in the format? Remove the word Deathrite from your paragraph and all I see is whining about blue cards. Do you think people will stop playing blue cards if DRS gets banned? The format is going to be the same pile of compelling. Basically, even after a DRS ban, you still wouldn't be happy and you'd be back in this thread loudly proclaiming for a ban on Brainstorm. Why not just focus on your primary issue with the format in the first place?

Fair blue decks are always going to be the best decks, but when the best fair blue deck is immune to almost everything because of 1 card, it disincentives players to bother. Goyf and Birds do not, have not and will not ever provide a deck with the same ridiculous power that DRS does. The card has been a plague for some time and is only getting worse as more and more people realise how OP the card is. Remember when the best thing to do with DRS was to play it in Punishing Jund? LOL

Fair blue decks are immune to almost everything explicitly because of DRS? That's a bold statement.

You're right, Goyf and Birds aren't as OP as DRS. The nature of power creep is that newer pushed creatures do tend to be more over the top than previous ones, sure. Not really sure what your point here was. Are you arguing that no new creatures will ever rival the power of DRS?

[Mr. Safety]

• Lands
• ANT
• LED Dredge
• RBg Reanimator
• Infect
• Turbo Depths
• Thresh

All disagree.

Not to be a complete asshat, but actually several Turbo Depths lists have played DRS in their lists, as recently as GP Madrid, alongside Dark Confidant to play a longer game that isn't as 'all-in'. I understand your point however, that the dtb as it stand does not use DRS, and I am in no way advocating a ban on DRS (or Gitaxian Probe, or any other card TBH.) I dislike True Name Nemesis the most, but it's still not ban-worthy if I follow my own advice. Do I wish Wild Nacatl was still playable? Hell yes! But the fact that it isn't does not make my unhappy, it just makes me dig for other options.

One of my favorite quotes (unsure of the source) is this: "Days go by slowly, years go by quickly." I think Legacy fits that bill pretty closely. It may seem drudging and uneventful when powerful strategies take their turn as DTB, but it eventually changes and the landscape a year from now will look different. I always appreciated the sentiment of 'wait for the format to adjust', as long as there has been a reasonable amount of time/events that have passed. I remember when Scepter/Chant required sideboard slots because it was the premier prison deck of the format.

[Lemnear]

am actually not sure if a 1 mana 10/10 is more broken than DRS...it doesn't provide grave hate, it doesn't ramp you, it doesn't fix your mana, it might be harder to cast if it's monocolored, it might not have a relevant creature type, it still dies to swords and push, has no evasion, doesn't gain you life...it would certainly see play, but I don't know if it would beat the Deathrite decks.

I guess this was a clever hint at a 12/12 for 1 mana Phyrexian Dreadnought being unplayable while DRS is everywhere.

I am convinced the topic of the role of Tarmogoyf in old decks like Supreme Blue flies over the heads of the people who didn't play at the time and never saw the Goyf used as a board control element against aggro, which switches to killcon in the lategame. Goyf + Countertop was a deck able to beat combo AND aggro which was a major feat

[Whitefaces]

Angler is just a goyf with kicker, ban it!