View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #12681
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    Ban Pyroblast !

    /Sarcasm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  2. #12682

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    I blame Hollywood:
    I plead the 5th.

  3. #12683

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zulabnar View Post
    Only because some casual.dec go top 32
    and 4 lands got top 32
    I'm not sure what your definition of 'Casual.dec' is. But there are plenty of established and developing decks in that list which don't run Brainstorm.

    Also, I'm not sure what your point is. 35% of the top decks didn't run Brainstorm, but That doesn't really count somehow because 12.5% of the top decks happened to be Lands? Maybe you could give us a list of decks which you approve of and which you acknowledge would contribute to the meta?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Miagi View Post
    Only 65%? That is tbh little less than expected, but still that card is over represented in legacy.
    With over 13 000 cards in the Legacy pool, pretty much anything that sees any play at all is going to be over-represented.

    There will always be a card (or cards) played more than the others (aka, over-represented); and this is true of every format.
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  4. #12684

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    There will always be a card (or cards) played more than the others (aka, over-represented); and this is true of every format.
    Sure, there will always be a card played more than the others, because some card has to be #1. But the #1 card in Modern is Lightning Bolt at 45%, and the #1 card in Standard is Courser of Kruphix at 39% (Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth at 43% if you want to count nonbasic lands). Brainstorm is at significantly higher percentages than either of those.

  5. #12685

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    Sure, there will always be a card played more than the others, because some card has to be #1. But the #1 card in Modern is Lightning Bolt at 45%, and the #1 card in Standard is Courser of Kruphix at 39% (Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth at 43% if you want to count nonbasic lands). Brainstorm is at significantly higher percentages than either of those.
    So?
    Quote Originally Posted by SaberTooth View Post
    if brainstorm is banned, legacy will lost his heart

  6. #12686
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    Sure, there will always be a card played more than the others, because some card has to be #1. But the #1 card in Modern is Lightning Bolt at 45%, and the #1 card in Standard is Courser of Kruphix at 39% (Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth at 43% if you want to count nonbasic lands). Brainstorm is at significantly higher percentages than either of those.
    And what you take from there is that the longer the format exists the better cards emerge, therefore being more prevalent.

  7. #12687

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    Sure, there will always be a card played more than the others, because some card has to be #1. But the #1 card in Modern is Lightning Bolt at 45%, and the #1 card in Standard is Courser of Kruphix at 39% (Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth at 43% if you want to count nonbasic lands). Brainstorm is at significantly higher percentages than either of those.
    Yeah, I get that. But calling BS over-represented in inane. There will always be over-represented cards. The question is :
    Is BS over-represented more-so than is acceptable for the #1 played card in the format?

    Reading through this thread, there are plenty of opinions stated about this very matter.

    Personally, I will never judge Legacy by comparing it to Modern or Standard! Those formats could disappear altogether without affecting my assessment of Legacy.

    But since you mention it...
    Those formats might have a better balance when it comes to variety of cards, but Legacy has them beat hands down when it comes to variety of play-styles (aka, aggro, tempo, prison, control, combo, midrange). So I don't think Legacy need envy Standard or Modern!
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  8. #12688
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    If you take out Brainstorm the next most played card will likely be Force. At that point the "Because it's the most played card" arguments die. Because no one that has played this format for any amount of time is going to be asking for a Force ban.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  9. #12689

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    If you take out Brainstorm the next most played card will likely be Force. At that point the "Because it's the most played card" arguments die. Because no one that has played this format for any amount of time is going to be asking for a Force ban.
    That's largely because Force is the 'Fun Police', whereas Brainstorm is the 'Joker Gas' of Legacy.

  10. #12690

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    If you take out Brainstorm the next most played card will likely be Force. At that point the "Because it's the most played card" arguments die.
    Rather at that point we realize the absurdity of banning based on play frequency in the first place. We need to look at how the card affects the format, not merely how much play it sees!
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  11. #12691
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I will grant you that and leave my views at the door, I just wished to point out that the idea that "Well there will always be a most played card and it will be the peoples target" is a false dichotomy because no one is ever going to really entertain the thought of banning Force. Not if they have a reasonable understanding of what the card does in Legacy and ifs secondary effects.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  12. #12692
    bruizar
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I think by now we've informally established that vintage is the (uber)broken-cards format and legacy is the brainstorm format. Killing brainstorm (regardless of whether it deserves it) means killing the identity of the format.

  13. #12693
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    I think by now we've informally established that vintage is the (uber)broken-cards format and legacy is the brainstorm format. Killing brainstorm (regardless of whether it deserves it) means killing the identity of the format.
    I certainly don't consider that a bad thing.
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  14. #12694
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The bad part is when the card that is so ubiquitous that it basically says "play this card or lose". That's imo where the format is at right now barring lands and elves.
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  15. #12695

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Star|Scream View Post
    So?
    So saying that "there will always be cards played more than others, and this is true in all formats" isn't a particularly compelling argument for defending Brainstorm's 70+% metagame share, when those other formats don't have cards being played that much more. I mean, heck, if Brainstorm was in 100% of decks, you could use that argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    But since you mention it...
    Those formats might have a better balance when it comes to variety of cards, but Legacy has them beat hands down when it comes to variety of play-styles (aka, aggro, tempo, prison, control, combo, midrange).
    ...except one of the archetypes you listed, aggro, has been unviable for quite some time in Legacy. On the other hand, it's quite alive in Modern and Standard.

  16. #12696

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I'd classify Infect as an aggro deck.

    Let people call it a combo deck because it needs a certain combination of cards to win quickly, but I feel that's true for every deck... It wins by attacking quickly with creatures it hard-casts and goes all-in on, I don't know what else you'd want.

  17. #12697
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Saying infect is Aggro is like saying Elves is Aggro. Yea, it can get the job done that way, but it ain't the plan to play fair.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  18. #12698

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I find interesting that there isn't a main deck white card until 21st place Miracles list.

    Not sure what to make of that, just an observation

  19. #12699

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I will grant you that and leave my views at the door, I just wished to point out that the idea that "Well there will always be a most played card and it will be the peoples target" is a false dichotomy because no one is ever going to really entertain the thought of banning Force.
    I'm not saying people will always go after the most played card. I'm saying being the most played card is no criteria for banning!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    ...except one of the archetypes you listed, aggro, has been unavailable for quite some time in Legacy. On the other hand, it's quite alive in Modern and Standard.
    I agree that infect is not aggro - it plays like tempo. Burn on the other hand is the definition of aggro (unless you think aggro needs an arbitrary percent of its threats to be creatures).

    Point is Legacy could have zero aggro and still feature a better mix of styles than Modern or Standard - which have little (or nothing) in the way of viable combo, tempo, control or prison! Yes, the decks might run more different cards, but they mostly attack the game from the very same angle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    The bad part is when the card that is so ubiquitous that it basically says "play this card or lose". That's imo where the format is at right now barring lands and elves.
    Way to dismiss one third to one fifth of the meta! How can you expect anyone to take you seriously (except those who already hate the meta)?
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    You can play Lands.dec in EDH too! My primer:
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  20. #12700

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    I agree that infect is not aggro - it plays like tempo. Burn on the other hand is the definition of aggro (unless you think aggro needs an arbitrary percent of its threats to be creatures).
    Burn is really more of a combo deck that wins the game by casting a spell 7 times, sort of like a Storm deck but over multiple turns. But even if you consider it to be aggro, Burn really doesn't put up many results.

    Point is Legacy could have zero aggro and still feature a better mix of styles than Modern or Standard - which have little (or nothing) in the way of viable combo, tempo, control or prison!
    Modern absolutely has combo and tempo, but maybe you're referring to Standard with that (though Standard sort of has some tempo). But it's odd you complain about lack of control or prison in Modern when there were more prison decks and more control decks in the Top 32 of the last Modern Open than there were aggro decks in the top 32 of the last Legacy Open (unless one wants to count Infect as aggro, which I don't, and which you seem to agree on).

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