Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
That's their fault for not playing blue to begin with. What are they? Peasants? Just roll up a random blue stew and get to playing legacy!Originally Posted by Fox
I agree with you about Astrolabe. Having a bullet-proof mana-base is perfectly reasonable in Legacy; Wasteland doesn't absolutely have to be good against every deck. There might be a fringe deck that still plays Labe if Oko gets banned, but that should be perfectly fine. I honestly think there are applications that haven't been explored with it because just jamming it with Oko is better than any jank synergy you could come up with. I look at cards like Reshape and Transmute Artifact, Mox Opal, Lotus Bloom, Urza and Second Sunrise. Astrolabe making the mana-base strong while being a sacrifice target in artifact shenanigans seems like a good time.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Fine then. Let's ban Valki so Maverick players can pretend they have a standing chance against Blue Stew + whetever broken blue cards Wizard will print this year. On the other hand, touching Oko, Uro, Force of Negation, Delver, TNN, Ponder or any of the bullshit printed in the last 10 years that makes blue the best color at basically every aspect of the game is basically unthinkable because it would force blue players to *gasp* adapt to the metagame or even *the horror* switch to a strategy that's not 3-4c goodstuff. What a nightmare this would be, adapting a deck to a metagame beyond 5 flex slots.
Oko should go.
Astrolabe is fine. The card is balanced when it isn't a haste 3/3.
TNN hasn't seen play in ages. Can it even make Elks? What a waste of 3 mana.
Last edited by FTW; 02-12-2021 at 10:38 AM.
Anyway here is my Objectively Superior™ banlist proposal that preserves Fun&Diversity As Garfield Intended®
Banned: True-Name Nemesis, Oko, Uro (just obvious and unfun mistakes), Delver (who the hell thought it was a good idea to give blue the best aggressive creature) Ponder, Preordain (we'll let you keep brainstorm because we know you can't get an erection without it but the other cantrips absolutely have to go), Daze, Force of Negation (we let you keep Force of Will, that's it. pay for your spells like everyone else) Volcanic Island, Underground Sea, Tundra, Tropical Island (that's right blue your manabase sucks now. we'll let you keep Basic Island so Merfolk can still thrive)
Don't worry, you still have Brainstorm, Jace, Snapcaster, Force of Will, Brazen Borrower, all the cheap countermagic, 8 strixes, and so on; I'm sure you can cook up some 3-4c goodstuff stew if the mere thought of a deck with actual flavor repels you.
Maybe banned: Emrakul, Griselbrand (just dumb cards that don't care about gamestate. on the other hand combo might be too nerfed), Leovold, Hullbreacher, Narset (absolutely dumb and miserable to play against, but enable interesting combos with the draw 7s so w/e)
Show and Tell is dumb but dropping big things is fun so it stays in. Astrolabe and DHA stay good but probably won't be problematic once all the blue stew gets drained.
Unbanned: Top, DRS (now that blue is nerfed they can regain their rightful place in the format), Earthcraft, Survival, Frantic Search, Mind Twist, Yawgmoth's Bargain (none of them will see more than niche play), Zirda, Lurrus (with the new companion rules they're more than safe), Goblin Recruiter (give me a break with that lame 'tournament time' argument, first it's not that big a concern and second who the hell plays big tournaments nowadays)
Maybe unbanned: Library of Alexandria, Memory Jar, Wheel of Fortune, Time Twister, Fastbond (they're not as good as you thought they were 15 years ago), Mox Pearl (who the fuck plays white anyway lmao), Bazaar of Bagdad (absolutely broken but fun as hell. if you get to keep brainstorm I want my Bazaar)
While we're at it, and since this is all pure fantasy we might just keep on dreaming, there will be new printings that punish people for being so damn greedy all the time:
Duosphere (like Trinisphere but costs 2 and makes everything costs at least 2)
Unisphere (ditto but with 1)
Magus of the Trinisphere (same exact text as trinisphere but also a 3/3 for 2W)
Magus of the Duosphere (you guessed it)
Magus of the Unisphere (ditto)
Magus of the Chalice (a 0/1 for XX with X counters on it, whenever a player casts a spell blah blah blah)
Also, and this should go without saying, the reserve list gets thoroughly abolished and reprinted to hell, even the non-competitive cards like Pyramids. Use Robinhood or Kraken like a normal person for your nerd speculation purposes.
That's pretty much it. Fuck Legacy and fuck WotC.
You don't need to ban Valki, they just need to update the rules in line with what they already did with Cascade.
You used to be able to cascade a Shardless Agent into Bust because Boom is CMC 2.
The design space is the same, for all they talk up about streamlining rules to coincide with players expectations, this is just flagrant.
Either that, or go back to letting me Imprint Research onto my Isochron Scepter and casting Development every turn.
If one is okay, then both should be. Saying one is unintuitive might have merit, but be consistent for fuck's sake.
Your bias is showing.
If you want to beat up on blue, just play Dredge.
"BUT IT FLODS TO HAET!" I don't care. That hate has a specific function and it serves a specific purpose admirably. You just want Legacy to be a one-deck format, only it's gotta be YOUR deck.
EDIT: Also, most of those cards wouldn't even do anything. What's the point in changing things around if it doesn't matter?
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
That is quite the suggested banlist. Since you play a deck that doesn't have its origins in entirely old-bordered cards let me help you understand the only things that have ever mattered in legacy for any length of time:
1- Tarmogoyf until the printing of SCM
2- total hand destruction (Hymn with Shardless or SCM, Counterbalance, and Grixis Delver with Probe/Therapy)
3- Oko
^this is the comprehensive story of legacy, with short interruptions from cards like Misstep, Cruise, Dig, Wrenn, Breach, Lurrus. Once Oko is banned, we will be adding Echo to the list of total hand destruction.
SnT and its dudes don't matter. They are combo control, and the more of them you see, the less likely you are to get Belcher'd to oblivion. No matter how much you hate losing to the sheer stupidity of SnT, they are your allies. If you ever want to play grindy magic, you need combo control to lay down the law, more than any other archetype.
You have correctly identified Oko as a card that needs to be banned. The one and only job the AggroLoamers & Chalice bros of the world need to perform is to troll Delver decks, and be able to Chalice-troll design mistakes like Dreadhorde for the rest of us. Also you guys are allowed to try and derp wins off of SB Leyline spam.
The job of the Maverick-types is again to spam the Leyline cheese and try and derp people out with hatebears. Unfortunately they banned DRS instead of Hymn, ensuring you would never stand a chance against Grixis control which is now called 4c SnowOko, so the rest of the format can't count on you guys to police GYs effectively.
Now to all the Maverick and Loamers out there, just so you're aware, your deck is just a cheap knock-off of RG Lands b/c of your insufferable need to play KotR. Shut the eff up about TNN, you're playing a KNIGHT WITHOUT FLANKING.
I can see you're quite the astute detective, detecting my bias despite my best attempts to be absolutely impartial and dispassionate.
I don't see how it transpires that I want to play only one deck, let alone what deck I play. On the contrary, I deplore the wealth and diversity of competitive decks that existed prior to WotC giving the already-best color of magic a bunch of broken printings.If you want to beat up on blue, just play Dredge.
"BUT IT FLODS TO HAET!" I don't care. That hate has a specific function and it serves a specific purpose admirably. You just want Legacy to be a one-deck format, only it's gotta be YOUR deck.
I'm not sure how you can readily conclude how a meta might shake out with a bunch of hypothetical bannings and imaginary printings. If you think you're this good at predicting things you should save yourself the trouble of arguing on a nerd forum and buy out the next Gamestop stock or whatever.EDIT: Also, most of those cards wouldn't even do anything. What's the point in changing things around if it doesn't matter?
To Fox: I have no idea how you got the idea that I play Maverick, or even what deck I play at all. It's not really about the deck I play but the decks I encounter. Seeing Delver all the damn time for 10 years, like a giant and enduring middle finger to the color pie was already tiring enough, but Oko and Uro are just too much even after 1 year. I don't care what decks are playable so long as I don't have to see the same goodstuff piles round after round.
I also don't get why you're telling me about the history of Legacy since I'm not trying to extrapolate the future from the past, I'm indulging in my fantasy on a dying forum as a therapeutic device to cope with the fact that the format is ruined, WotC keeps screwing up and paper magic is dead anyway. Instead of having improductive debates that lead to nowhere you should indulge yourself as well and post your ideal banlist/format, I'm curious to see it.
You can't go off on cards like Grisel and Emmy and TNN and also be mostly concerned by goodstuff piles. Let's take on TNN really quickly - this card is made to stop people from goodstuff durdling. The issue is that TNN deals 3 and Oko/Uro gain 3 per turn. If you don't like goodstuff, you don't actually have any problems with TNN - it's on your side.
My premise in thinking about the banned list is that it's a bad thing when the questions "What's the best card?" and "What's the best color?" have obvious answers.
I don't think this premise is shared by nearly as many players as I once thought.
You missed Serum Visions and Portent.
Talking about what should and shouldn't be banned doesn't really matter when the design paradigm of legacy essentially forces any new cards to be borderline bannable if they want to see any real play, since at least half the meta is already playing with "cards that should be banned". When there is such an advantage in interaction it makes sense that the only other axis decks can compete with is less-interactive in either solitaire or prison styles, with most new "playables" emphasizing this distinction or just getting banned outright for pushing it too far.
You see, what I liked in Legacy was the quirky interactions whereby two or more bad-to-middling cards suddenly became broken when taken together. Infernal Tutor + LED, Dredge cards + Ichorid and Narcomoeba, Aluren + Parasitic Strix, Painter + Grindstone, etc. Hell, even the dumb Eldrazi + a fragile sol land manabase qualify. It didn't really matter to me whether the quirky deck is interactive or prison or solitaire or aggro, as long as it was unique. It also meant each deck had a specific angle of attack and specific weaknesses, which meant in turn that you could attempt to disrupt a number of those strategies by coming up with your own. Eventually, on the eve of a tournament, a large number of people would attempt to second-guess each other on the many possible strategies and the means to disrupt them in a myriad of different ways, an intellectually and psychologically interesting thought process also known as metagaming.
But repeatedly Wizards has shown that they dislike this approach to 'quirky' game design because it's often combo-ish and 'combo feels bad'. It's also much harder to design cards such that they are balanced alone but very strong when paired with another balanced card. It also sells less, because it's not always obvious which interactions go well together and how strong it is. So instead they design cards that just do value on their own, one card combos. And more and more, the quirky and original cards give way to the goodstuff. Why go to such lengths to do some contrived synergies when you can just slam value card after value card until your opponent concedes?
So yes, the current paradigm is that Wizards will keep pushing dumb card after dumb card so the meta becomes obsolete every year or so. The previous paradigm, when the cards that made it into Legacy occupied a sort of niche that competed with the others instead of taking over, this is what I miss.
Nah it's ok, I want to imagine a blue mage's face contort into disgust under their N95 mask as they resort to flashing back Serum Visions with DHA.You missed Serum Visions and Portent.
In a format with brainstorm and force of will, banning things purely on power level has already been thrown out the window.
Effects on the meta and gameplay have to be considerations as well.
I have bad news for you.
Then don't waste our time. Chalice of the Void does enough of that without you.
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
To be honest I'm kind of surprised they didn't have Cascade only cast the side with the lower mana cost to begin with. They changed the way the split cards worked so you couldn't pull off that cascade trick anymore, so it's really odd to me they didn't have that as the way these worked from the get-go.
Been waiting for this since about January last year, finally! Hopefully. There's a b&r announcement planned for Monday. https://twitter.com/mtgoverhaul/stat...068907525?s=21
https://twitter.com/itsJulian23/stat...659268/photo/1
Let's just remember that RUG Delver and Turbo Tibalt and Snowko are all completely different decks. It wouldn't be valid to just lump them together and then compute the percentage of "Oko decks." Even if the best Legacy deck always happens to be some kind of deck containing Oko, it's all right because the second-best and third-best Legacy decks will be different decks containing Oko.
Don't even get me started on how Oko is doing us a favor by policing the format.
There are currently 2065 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2065 guests)
Reply With Quote