View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21441

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Are Karn decks really doing so well that tomb/monolith need the axe?
    No, but as someone who got their deck banned over and over again in modern I have just resigned myself to the inevitable. I look at the deck, find the card that fits into the most other decks, and ban it. SPLASH!

  2. #21442
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The last challenge didn't even have a Post-Ramp deck in the Top 8. The meta is hardly settled. Since we don't even know the conversion rate of the Post decks in the time they seemed to be doing well, we don't even know that they did all that well in reality.

    After the London Mulligan we'll see how Chalice, et. al. does and go from there. My actual hope is that it gives BUG decks a reason to be run in the new meta, for Decay and Trophy, but we'll see if Narset being double Blue means it's better to get access to Red Blasts or not.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I feel like as long as blue is 65-70% of the meta having access to red blasts is almost always the plan
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It reminds me of the blow up when Eldrazi first got big. All the talk about banning Chalice, the end of the world had come, some other hyperbole about a deck that had a semi decent answer to the formats hegemonic controller.

    This will blow over much the same, with the same outcome. The top dog will stay the top dog, nothing will be different.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  5. #21445
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I feel like as long as blue is 65-70% of the meta having access to red blasts is almost always the plan
    If there are no other concerns, of course. Even so, there are always other concerns. For example, right now, it seems it was the case that UW Blade was "better" than UWr Blade, so "all things being equal" is never all things actually all things being equal.

    So, it could be the case that access to Red Blasts does not outweigh, in the future meta, access to something like Decay or Trophy. But it could be the case that Red Blasts are better. So, we'll have to see how to shakes out really. Even from a "pure Reason" standpoint, Decay does also answer Narset, but in a "worse" way. Even so, that might be "good enough" to still give it a place in the meta. Not to say that supplanting something like Grixis is likely. Rather, BUG seems like it could become a reasonable meta-choice, in the right circumstances.

    Again, all the theory in the world is fine, but we will have to see what people actually do before we can even pretend to know what the second, third and so on, order effects will be. Not to mention the full effect of the London Mulligan (if we are right to suppose it comes).
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  6. #21446
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    If there are no other concerns, of course. Even so, there are always other concerns. For example, right now, it seems it was the case that UW Blade was "better" than UWr Blade, so "all things being equal" is never all things actually all things being equal.

    So, it could be the case that access to Red Blasts does not outweigh, in the future meta, access to something like Decay or Trophy. But it could be the case that Red Blasts are better. So, we'll have to see how to shakes out really. Even from a "pure Reason" standpoint, Decay does also answer Narset, but in a "worse" way. Even so, that might be "good enough" to still give it a place in the meta. Not to say that supplanting something like Grixis is likely. Rather, BUG seems like it could become a reasonable meta-choice, in the right circumstances.

    Again, all the theory in the world is fine, but we will have to see what people actually do before we can even pretend to know what the second, third and so on, order effects will be. Not to mention the full effect of the London Mulligan (if we are right to suppose it comes).
    Not to steer away and turn it into a meta discussion, but I think strict UW getting better access to Back 2 Basics has something to do with it too. I could see why BUG has some appeal, but red having stuff like Wear/Tear and such plus the red blasts is probably better in most cases. But who knows?
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  7. #21447
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Not to steer away and turn it into a meta discussion, but I think strict UW getting better access to Back 2 Basics has something to do with it too. I could see why BUG has some appeal, but red having stuff like Wear/Tear and such plus the red blasts is probably better in most cases. But who knows?
    Right, right, but that's sort of what I mean, there are always more factors than just the prima facie point at hand. In fact, this sort of illustrates a prospective broad point, where the case must be made against Red as a splash color, not really for it. BUG decks can often "get away" with not running Red Blast by virtue of having threats that Red Blasts don't answer. Well, at least, in the old days, before Angler, because now Grixis has Push and Angler, combining to marginalize the return on being in Green over Red.

    This is all part of why I think Brother Deathrite was made to fall on a sword in error, but whatever, that ship sailed. Still, there are very few reasons, at the moment, to add Green to your UBx deck, over Red. I'd personally like to see that change. Maybe Modern Horizons can deliver a "fixed" DRS or a "buffed" BOP and get us there.
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  8. #21448
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Yeah, that's my thinking as well. WAR cards, plus new Mulligan means no other actions. Not to mention the impending dump of Modern Horizon cards into the relevant formats.
    I'll 2nd (or 3rd) this. For the first time in a long time it would be unwise to make any changes even with obviously unbannable cards. Too many new factors all at once: if something broke it would be tough to figure out how to fix it.
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  9. #21449
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Unfortunately WotC seems incapable of banning CB [unban SDT] and ban Hymn [unban DRS].
    There's no reason to ban CB. It's a fair card without Top. Meanwhile Top is a huge timewaster, they love banning it in all formats.

    There's no reason to ban Hymn. It's not broken compared to other 2 cmc and 3 cmc cards available to BUG and Grixis control. DRS is a 1-mana Planeswalker.

    There's also no reason to ban Ancient Tomb just because a few Post decks are actually making top 8s instead of Brainstorms. It's a key piece of so many diverse decks. Without it there would be even less reason not to run Brainstorm.

  10. #21450
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Top unfortunately makes a pretty great combo with bolas' citadel.
    -rob

  11. #21451
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    There's no reason to ban CB. It's a fair card without Top. Meanwhile Top is a huge timewaster, they love banning it in all formats.

    There's no reason to ban Hymn. It's not broken compared to other 2 cmc and 3 cmc cards available to BUG and Grixis control. DRS is a 1-mana Planeswalker.

    There's also no reason to ban Ancient Tomb just because a few Post decks are actually making top 8s instead of Brainstorms. It's a key piece of so many diverse decks. Without it there would be even less reason not to run Brainstorm.
    You can look back a ways in this thread and see that I've pointed out Ancient Tomb as needing to be watched long before they printed these new cards; the new cards simply made it more blatantly obvious. The looming mulligan change would make Tomb a more negative force in the format ~ i.e. it's not really a mulligan if you're able to find a Tomb.

    DRS is the only [non-Zombardent] 1-drop playable black creature (that can come down turn 1) in legacy - they have not filled this gaping hole. DRS is interactive, and while it's annoying that Fetchlands are legal, there are bigger Fetchland abusers than DRS (mainly Brainstorm). You can't keep ramping up Tomb's position in the meta and justify denying colored decks their main mana advantage tool.

    Hymn with perfect mana fixing is not a reasonable card. It brings nothing positive to the format, particularly with Snapcaster. Hymn (and other discard spam) being legal is a primary argument for unbanning SDT, which uses a zone discard can't touch (especially instant speed discard). Now if DRS is legal, we already know that there are only 3 ways to use it: Czech, Grixis Delver, and Elves. It's really easy to have a good matchup vs the last two; but no matter what your DRS-using deck does, you can't leverage it b/c of Hymn Snap Hymn. The ability to use DRS differently is absolutely demolished b/c of Hymn to Tourach specifically. You have to be able to beat Shatter/Shock (Kcomm) and a 1/1 flying deathtouch - this requires having a hand and not being forced to play everything you draw the moment you draw it.

    CB is in a class of its own with it's unsupported, albeit theoretical, 1-sided ceiling of counter everything your opponent casts with zero need to sustain. SDT wasting time had everything to do with the card Counterbalance incentivizing multiple spins per turn cycle, in a way that no other card could. Even Fetchlands encourage less SDT activations than CB.

  12. #21452
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    ...It brings nothing positive to the format...
    Not to get even further off topic or take you out of context, but I've seen people making this argument for years about so many different thing and I still have no idea what it actually means. Hell, what makes a card have a positive effect on the format in the first place?

  13. #21453

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    Not to get even further off topic or take you out of context, but I've seen people making this argument for years about so many different thing and I still have no idea what it actually means. Hell, what makes a card have a positive effect on the format in the first place?
    This ^.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  14. #21454
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    Not to get even further off topic or take you out of context, but I've seen people making this argument for years about so many different thing and I still have no idea what it actually means. Hell, what makes a card have a positive effect on the format in the first place?
    Something that adds interaction to the format while reducing the amount of games that end in mutual solitaire.

    (I understand the hypocrisy of a Stax player saying this.)
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
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  15. #21455
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    Not to get even further off topic or take you out of context, but I've seen people making this argument for years about so many different thing and I still have no idea what it actually means. Hell, what makes a card have a positive effect on the format in the first place?
    It's a way to insert an assumption about what the format should be without specifically naming it and thus have it able to be refuted.

    "Positive" is just what anyone would term "the sort of thing I want in the format." Framed with the word "positive" so that the implication is that it is, of course, a "good thing" but without actually bothering to elucidate what "good" actually is in the context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Something that adds interaction to the format while reducing the amount of games that end in mutual solitaire.

    (I understand the hypocrisy of a Stax player saying this.)
    See?
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  16. #21456
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    It's a way to insert an assumption about what the format should be without specifically naming it and thus have it able to be refuted.

    "Positive" is just what anyone would term "the sort of thing I want in the format." Framed with the word "positive" so that the implication is that it is, of course, a "good thing" but without actually bothering to elucidate what "good" actually is in the context.
    What's the quote about porn vs art? "I know it when I see it?" I feel it's much the same here. I mean I (subjectivity perhaps) do not feel TNN adds anything positive to Legacy. Just as an example.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
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  17. #21457
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Getting better mulligans by virtue of have “double-bonus“ lands + buffing the mulligan system is a dangerous combination. This is a net negative external game structure mechanic.

  18. #21458
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Wait brainstorm has been 8/8 in GPs, consistently is 6/8 in most other major tourney's and suddenly one card gets printed and hasn't even really put up results and Ancient Tomb is a problem?
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
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    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  19. #21459
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    What's the quote about porn vs art? "I know it when I see it?" I feel it's much the same here. I mean I (subjectivity perhaps) do not feel TNN adds anything positive to Legacy. Just as an example.
    I'm not saying you a "wrong" to want those things. But your post actually perfectly encapsulates how in the end, it's just preference. In fact, you highlight the fact that you think "interaction," whatever that is, is "good" but you still want "prison" a rather "non-interactive" thing.

    This thread is probably far more preference "masked" as "objective criterion" than it is anything else. There isn't anything wrong with have preferences, in fact, just the opposite. The fact is though, it is and always will be bias. The question is, which bias "wins out?"
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  20. #21460
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I'm not saying you a "wrong" to want those things. But your post actually perfectly encapsulates how in the end, it's just preference. In fact, you highlight the fact that you think "interaction," whatever that is, is "good" but you still want "prison" a rather "non-interactive" thing.

    This thread is probably far more preference "masked" as "objective criterion" than it is anything else. There isn't anything wrong with have preferences, in fact, just the opposite. The fact is though, it is and always will be bias. The question is, which bias "wins out?"
    None of them, because we are ultimately powerless to change anything. This is a venting service, not a relevant discussion in a diplomatic sense. Nothing is lost or gained.

    It's taken me years to be willing to read shit and not desire to prove my point. But for a long time I did and that was very toxic. That toxicity is limited to this one thread, letting it collect the shit other threads would otherwise have to deal with.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

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