View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21481
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    I've always thought it'd be fair-er-ish if DRS just targeted your own graveyard.
    Ended the DRS staredowns, removed the incidental graveyard safety net, and caused you to exhaust resources at twice the rate.
    As I understand it, Wotc agreed with you. They tested DRS in that fashion but then decided to both let it target the other grave and gave it 2 toughness so it would be able to combat Lingering Souls and survive the Souls hate cards.

    I would have to dig to find this shit again (It was on a live stream of a legacy event. I think one of the Dukes said it) but yea, thats what I remember. Jitte 2.0.
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  2. #21482

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    As I understand it, Wotc agreed with you. They tested DRS in that fashion but then decided to both let it target the other grave and gave it 2 toughness so it would be able to combat Lingering Souls and survive the Souls hate cards.

    I would have to dig to find this shit again (It was on a live stream of a legacy event. I think one of the Dukes said it) but yea, thats what I remember. Jitte 2.0.
    How DRS got both just hurts my face from palming it so hard.

  3. #21483
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    How DRS got both just hurts my face from palming it so hard.
    Well, sort of like Jitte (or Skullclamp), no one likely does. Because in late-development pushes on cards, it usually happens that a bunch of things happen and then it all just goes through as "now good enough."

    I mean, with Deathrite, I think it should keep the utility to target both yards, but lose the ability to produce any color, lose the hybrid casting cost and the 2 toughness. Also ditch the non-cost nature of exiling of cards and lose the non-targeting ability of the life loss, this means less stand-offs, and still checks Snapcaster.
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  4. #21484
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Not a doomsday scenario @PirateKing, it simply shouldn't be a thing because you failed to have two very specific pieces of interaction (vs Sea/DRS -> inevitable turn 2 Hymn). In the same way Probe -> Sea -> Therapy, lose 2 cards before turn 1 is moronic. There is no choosing to beat these openers, they always hit. Similar to Tomb -> Chalice, these strategies exist to make first player advantage more pronounced (i.e. anti-skill).

    Now as bad as it feels to lose to SnT -> Emmy, or TNN, Reanimate Grisel, etc... you got to play your game. You might lose in a blowout; but unless they had a god hand, you're going to get a chance to enact a proactive plan. You may have brought a mismatched plan (which is favored to lose), but you're only going to be subjected to a mix of 'feels bad' + flawed card design. The one thing being second has going for it is the extra card. You can choose to play a competitive deck that doesn't lose to Chalice, but there's really no way to escape being second player starting with 6 cards, because Git. Probe [by itself] and Fetch/DRS-fueled Hymn have non-game written all over them.

    Concerning @H's post on diversity, DRS + Hymn/Kcomm/Strix/SCM represented the complete collapse of any non-blue fair deck. Up to the point of the banning of DRS, there was no way to defend any Fetchland/DRS build that wasn't Grixis Delver, Elves, or Czech (to include Punishing Czech), if you wanted the deck to be considered competitive. Legacy's diversity has been run into the ground by the two Hymns (actual Hymn and CB) long enough....and we've been banning cards that put the brakes on SCM recursion [DRS] and the impact of discard [SDT]...we also banned DTT to help the bros out... This is an easy fix: CB out, SDT in + DRS in, Hymn out. It's been a spectacular bunch of years of boosting CB and Hymn for less than no reason.

    Not so bold prediction: boosting Tomb with new mulligan going to hurt the rest of the field more than it will hurt CB/Hymn.

  5. #21485
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Deathrite should've been designed as a hoser and be able to target only opposing graveyards. It would've still been borderline playable as fetches and shit are everywhere, but not be a 100% reliable mana dork (in black, nonetheless).

  6. #21486
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Concerning @H's post on diversity, DRS + Hymn/Kcomm/Strix/SCM represented the complete collapse of any non-blue fair deck. Up to the point of the banning of DRS, there was no way to defend any Fetchland/DRS build that wasn't Grixis Delver, Elves, or Czech (to include Punishing Czech), if you wanted the deck to be considered competitive. Legacy's diversity has been run into the ground by the two Hymns (actual Hymn and CB) long enough....and we've been banning cards that put the brakes on SCM recursion [DRS] and the impact of discard [SDT]...we also banned DTT to help the bros out... This is an easy fix: CB out, SDT in + DRS in, Hymn out. It's been a spectacular bunch of years of boosting CB and Hymn for less than no reason.
    OK, but again, you presuppose that it is Hymn that did whatever "forcing out" happened, even though you show no evidence for this, in fact, you show the opposite, in Grixis Delver (no Hymn) and Elves (non-Blue and no Hymn). Not to mention, that there were non-Blue fair decks doing rather well, notably Death and Taxes, in this time. But you will likely just write those off as "exceptions" as well, and still assert that your hypothesis is "right." So, it isn't even the case that your theory doesn't fit the evidence, there isn't even any evidence at all.

    Not only that, but I am really not even going to get into your assertion on Dig Through Time, because I don't even see a cogent argument there to discuss. I am reminded of the sort of fictional statement by Pauli, "that is not only not right; it is not even wrong."
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  7. #21487
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    OK, but again, you presuppose that it is Hymn that did whatever "forcing out" happened, even though you show no evidence for this, in fact, you show the opposite, in Grixis Delver (no Hymn) and Elves (non-Blue and no Hymn). Not to mention, that there were non-Blue fair decks doing rather well, notably Death and Taxes, in this time. But you will likely just write those off as "exceptions" as well, and still assert that your hypothesis is "right." So, it isn't even the case that your theory doesn't fit the evidence, there isn't even any evidence at all.

    Not only that, but I am really not even going to get into your assertion on Dig Through Time, because I don't even see a cogent argument there to discuss. I am reminded of the sort of fictional statement by Pauli, "that is not only not right; it is not even wrong."
    So you have two decks (Czech and Grixis Delver) that did the same thing: exploit first player advantage with 2-for-1 discard. They did it differently, but it was basically the same cheese. Elves was the only DRS deck that could have its hand obliterated over and over, but it was more than capable of DRS-machine gunning for 4/6/8 per turn with some on-board things. For everyone else, you're never beating Czech with your own DRS b/c you need to have a semblance of a hand to start playing things that play around Kcomm's Shatter/Shock.

    There is the realm of Fetchlands (mostly cantrip cartel, but some non-blue), which is distinct from the responses to it (Cavern/Vial, Loam/Mox, Sol Land/Chalice). It is rare, but sometimes you can compete without using either 4 methods, but this is mostly the realm of Burn or oddities like mono-black budget Reanimator. The three responses to Fetchlands are incredibly restrictive, because of how they've elected to gain velocity. There's a lot of diversity in Fetchlands (i.e. less-restricted color-users). Czech caused a massive diversity problem within the Fetchland peer group b/c it hijacked, and basically monopolized, DRS use in a way Grixis Delver and Elves never could.

    So to be clear on that point: you could start with DRS and make a generically competitive deck and still stomp Grixis Delver/Elves. It is because of Hymn [specifically] being legal that there was no [non-Grixis Delver, non-Elves] DRS starting point that didn't get murdered by Czech.

    It didn't matter what your deck was called, be it Shardless or Jund or Junk or Maverick, etc...you were on crappy Czech [with a horrid Czech matchup]. This kind of unplayability, for these archetypes, had not been seen since the apex of DTT's Omnitell.

    So we've seen the not-blue Fetchland guys collapse twice in recent memory (DTT and Czech), and both times there have been bans. Taking away their best tool (DRS), predictably has not helped their meta share a ton.

    From the CB/Hymn side of things the history looks something like this:
    -up to the ban, DTT made Hymn unplayable (at that time Shardless)
    -banning SDT made SCM more playable (less need to cascade to/towards Decay). The banning of the best remaining anti-discard tool [SDT] further rewards Hymn teaming up with SCM.
    -banning DRS improves CB w/ SCM's place in the meta

    Now WotC doesn't have a great track record when it comes to healthy management of legacy (see also letting Goyf ruin the format until SCM's printing)...but their recent banning decisions generally seem attributable to either: keeping not-blue [Fetchland] playable, or intentionally preserving Hymn/CB as the most cancerous 'policemen' in the format. I find the former explanation to be the most likely.

    Assuming that is their motivation, they've dropped the ball repeatedly by: banning colorless card selection -> banning DRS -> printing better spot removal (like Push, new Edict, Angrath's Dreadbore) -> printing more PWs (friendly to Strix, Wraths, and hyper-efficient wincons like Mentor) -> now potentially handing Sol Land/Chalice better mulligans.

    ^This is a rather misguided way to help the mavericks of the format, but it's a little more believable than intentionally boosting CB/Hymn. It would be a little hard to disguise giving Grixis another maindeckable Shatter (Angrath's) and CB a maindeckable bounce (new Teferi) while boosting Ancient Tomb to hurt everyone else. Something is going to get banned, and the most likely motivation will be to give more meta share to not-blue Fetchland decks. They have fared a little better since Czech was reduced to Grixis, but without DRS they are still on life support; I wouldn't find his return that surprising.

  8. #21488
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Deathrite Shaman was fine and continues to be totally fine. People who complain that it invalidated Goblin Lackey should re-examine why they've been playing a deck that relies on a specific turn-1 play to function. Kind of like people who currently play decks that are only viable because of a specific turn-1 play.
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    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
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    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
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  9. #21489

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    "It's not that the card is too good even by Wizards' admission, it's players who choose to play decks I don't like."

  10. #21490
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    For those interested they just nuked Pauper

    Banned and Restricted Announcement was just released. Effective May 24, 2019 (May 20 on Magic Online):

    Pauper:

    Gush, Gitaxian Probe, and Daze are banned.

  11. #21491
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    And no London Mulligan. I'm actually rather disappointed in that.
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  12. #21492
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    And no London Mulligan. I'm actually rather disappointed in that.
    Me too, I thought for sure they would announce it. Maybe it will get it's own announcement?
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  13. #21493
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Not that I give a shit about Pauper, but good to see probe now being banned or restricted in every format it's legal in because it's a completely stupid card. I remember people in here actually thought it was a fine card to keep in legacy. Rest in hell you piece of shit card
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  14. #21494
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    "It's not that the card is too good even by Wizards' admission, it's players who choose to play decks I don't like."
    No, it's actually that mulliganing for relevant plays and/or walking directly into opponents' answers as a matter of course indicates that a deck has trouble being relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Not that I give a shit about Pauper, but good to see probe now being banned or restricted in every format it's legal in because it's a completely stupid card. I remember people in here actually thought it was a fine card to keep in legacy. Rest in hell you piece of shit card
    It'll probably sound like I'm picking a fight (which, perhaps surprisingly, I'm not), but the question remains: what exactly was Probe doing that made it too good? Not good, not great, not exceptional—TOO good.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
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  15. #21495

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    It'll probably sound like I'm picking a fight (which, perhaps surprisingly, I'm not), but the question remains: what exactly was Probe doing that made it too good? Not good, not great, not exceptional—TOO good.
    It's free.
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  16. #21496
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I personally don't hate the card, I feel it's not the most egregious thing, that said, to answer the question:

    1) Thins deck
    2) Grants information
    3) Acts like a mini Channel with Dredge

    I feel the free information as well as acting as a mana source is in the end what really doomed it.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
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  17. #21497

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    No, it's actually that mulliganing for relevant plays and/or walking directly into opponents' answers as a matter of course indicates that a deck has trouble being relevant.



    It'll probably sound like I'm picking a fight (which, perhaps surprisingly, I'm not), but the question remains: what exactly was Probe doing that made it too good? Not good, not great, not exceptional—TOO good.
    it's free

    it gives you complete information on opponent . Magic is a game of missing information.

    It let you draw. so is a cantrip

    It combos so easily with a lot of cards (therapy?)

    It's a green lamp signal for combo to close-



    I wrote this years ago, and people was writing it was not strong. Now is banned everywhere. Fear me.
    Why wouldn't you play Zoo? Instead of a 5/5 for B that's immune to Push, you can get a 4/5 for 1G that's not. And instead of a 3/2 flyer for U, you can get a 3/3 double conditional for G. Oh, and you also get to not include the two best colors in Legacy, or any of the best spells, and you're a dog to combo.

    What's not to love?

  18. #21498

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by aedemiel View Post
    It's free.
    In just about every sense of the word.
    It doesn't cost a card: It replaces itself.
    It doesn't have a mana cost: Because you pay life, and then net mana with dredge.
    It doesn't have an opportunity cost: Because the above.

    The only real cost was 2 life, which... pssshhhh..

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