Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
Are we talking about the same format?
When has there ever been a lame-duck ban in Legacy?
I can only assume you are using the management of other formats as your basis here? WotC have succeeded in not f'ing up Legacy with bans to date (and they have also demonstrated extreme reluctance, especially for established format staples).
- SDT ban effectively dethroned Miracles and opened the meta.
- DTT Ban was effective in curbing Omnitell.
- TC ban took a bite out of the UR(x) Tempo decks.
- SotF ban killed the target deck.
Last edited by Crimhead; 03-13-2018 at 06:53 PM.
Supremacy 2020 is the modern era game of nuclear brinksmanship! My blog:
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com
You can play Lands.dec in EDH too! My primer:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/t...lara-lands-dec
I’m just being salty but I was using my life total as a resource while I set up and just got totally punished by the topdeck. It was 18 to 11 I believe.
Yes, I should’ve been able to buy myself time with my board. But you can’t chump block, you cant have a zillion ways to kill it mb, it’s in the same deck as bolt so whatever. It’s just miserable. Worse, I felt like I should just be playing it, not because it does anything interesting, but because it just is the best thing to do at 3 in a fair deck. Totally warping and uninteresting.
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While that is true there is a not unsubstantial list of decks who's only information in a game is going to be what it's pilot can gleam in real time. The top preforming decks that fit this category are Elves (preboard), Lands, DnT and Eldrazi.
These decks all appear to forgo information gathering for redundancy and other powerful effects such as Tutors, Tinker and Recall.
Let's not talk about banning something until a deck has been told dog for at least 2 years. That seems to be about the time line Wizards works on.
In a banned list context, it is relevant which decks a card supports, how ubiguous the card is, and how it might perhaps be pushing too many other cards or play-styles out.
Whether a card is a beater or a walker; 1 mana or 2 mana, doesn't really inform the conversation.
Speaking of thinking false equivalences to be clever, DRS is a utility creature and not a walker. It dies to Plow, Edict, Terminus, and Tabernacle; but you can't just attack it with dudes.
Let's try to be factual here. Better discourse that way, right?
Last edited by Crimhead; 03-14-2018 at 07:41 AM.
Supremacy 2020 is the modern era game of nuclear brinksmanship! My blog:
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com
You can play Lands.dec in EDH too! My primer:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/t...lara-lands-dec
In this thread? Nah man, get out of here.
Also, what is hyperbole?
Drs is the greatest utility creature of all time, sure you got me! It has been referred to many times as the "littlest planeswalker". Attacking my semantics still doesn't mean that comparing DRS to Goyf or Birds is correct. What's that ancient greek quote about attacking how someone said something and not actually what they said?
False equivalency in what way? The comparison had nothing to do with the technical specifications of the cards in question; it was purely an analogy between the efficiency and power level difference between a set of cards. I could have been more drastic and compared Goyf with Wild Mongrel, Arrogant Wurm, Ravenous Baloth, or whatever else instead, which all saw play before Tarmogoyf was printed.
If you have only been playing Legacy since 2014, then I can understand why you don't see the parallels between Goyf in 2008 and DRS today.
Whether the cards are vanilla or have a hundred lines of text is irrelevant to the discussion of power creep. If they print a vanilla 10/10 creature for a single mana with no drawbacks, are you seriously going to believe that it's less OP than DRS because it is vanilla?
DRS is the most efficient and powerful mana dork ever printed, but it's within the power level of Legacy standards. We play in a format with turn 0 Chancellor into turn 1 Griselbrand.
DRS is an overly pushed card that should have had many things changed to make it less powerful. However, none of those things happened, and the card isn't breaking Legacy in half. It sees play in a wide variety of decks, the same way Goyf was jammed into everything a decade ago, but I don't see anything degenerate or format warping as a result.
Delver being the best deck doesn't change in a format without DRS. In fact, Stifle/Waste/Daze get significantly better. So if the intention is to nerf Delver, banning actual Delver is a much more effective ban.
What sort of format do you expect we would have without DRS, and why would that be better for Legacy than what we have right now?
There is always going to be a best deck. At least right now, the best deck is a somewhat fair and balanced deck like Grixis Delver. We have certainly had more miserable 'best deck in format' decks in the past.
That was exactly my point - if Probe (and the information it provides) is so important, it could shore up that weakness of these decks. Yet, no one plays it, implying it isn't as gamebreakingly powerful as he was implying.
Saying "only decks that can act on extra info can play probe" is a meaningless distinction because every deck benefits from extra information. If getting that information were literally free, as many Probe detractors argue, then a competitive player must avail themselves of it. We know they do not. Therefore, either Legacy players are not competitive (unlikely), or Probe is balanced enough to have reasonable applications in some decks and not others (likely).
I do see you're not advocating a ban though, so it seems like we're on the same page.
I actually agree with all your points about Deathrite Shaman, though this one struck me as an interesting thought experiment - I am actually not sure if a 1 mana 10/10 is more broken than DRS...it doesn't provide grave hate, it doesn't ramp you, it doesn't fix your mana, it might be harder to cast if it's monocolored, it might not have a relevant creature type, it still dies to swords and push, has no evasion, doesn't gain you life...it would certainly see play, but I don't know if it would beat the Deathrite decks.
It's a false equivalency because Goyf is only good at one thing: beating other creature decks not playing Goyf. It doesn't do anything against combo decks itself clock, it doesn't shrink an opposing KotR while undoing Knight's looping wastelands thing. DRS is actually better at beating DnT than Goyf is, and that's the only remaining fair creature deck left. I'm not going to start quoting what DRS does, but it does a hell of a lot more than Goyf does, duh.
Close enough, only since the start of 2012. Luckily, I can read about it. Goyf was in memefolk it was in countertop decks. It was still just a finisher and a beatstick. It didn't annihilate almost every other strategy by itself.
People would still say that a 1 mana 10/10 dies to plow/push/decay can be countered/chumped and they would also do my favourite legacy argument of which you have so kindly obliged me with;
Literally every deck that can accommodate a small splash to use DRS does so. Even Aggro-Loam with it's 4 maindeck chalices was playing 1 to Zenith for. What part of this is not format warping. Where Goyf was just a beater for the counter-top decks or the zoo decks, DRS just annihilates all opposing strategies whether you're a mana-denial deck or a Past in Flames deck or a Rite of Flame deck or a Life from the Loam deck or even a Lava Spike deck. Literally the only deck it doesn't really impact is Show and Tell. Context matters.
Back you go to this false equivalency of banning vanilla creatures.
It would be a whole lot less boring. Underground Sea -> Deathrite every single game wooooh such an interesting format. Delver or Strix, Counterspells or Discard, True-Name Nemesis or Jace the Mind Sculptor. Wow, what a compelling format.
Fair blue decks are always going to be the best decks, but when the best fair blue deck is immune to almost everything because of 1 card, it disincentives players to bother. Goyf and Birds do not, have not and will not ever provide a deck with the same ridiculous power that DRS does. The card has been a plague for some time and is only getting worse as more and more people realise how OP the card is. Remember when the best thing to do with DRS was to play it in Punishing Jund? LOL
All disagree.
- Lands
- ANT
- LED Dredge
- RBg Reanimator
- Infect
- Turbo Depths
- Thresh
How many decks actually splash a colour for DRS? I'm thinking:In this thread it's a tool used to demonize a card that somebody wants banned but cannot provide an objective argument.
- Maverick
- Grixis
- Czech
- Elves
DRS is a powerful card, but you seem to want everyone to believe it's more powerful than it actually is.
I'm not attacking your semantics. I'm ridiculing you for complaint about an (alleged) false equivalence in the same breath as making an obvious one yourself.
The comparison, BTW, has nothing to do with the function of the card. It's all about how a card is ubiquitous and pushes certain decks. It's been pointed out several times that these are the only relevant properties of a card in this context. Keep ignoring that and enjoy your campaign I guess.
Supremacy 2020 is the modern era game of nuclear brinksmanship! My blog:
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com
You can play Lands.dec in EDH too! My primer:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/t...lara-lands-dec
I think this is a little reductive. No deck that plays probe plays it only for the Peek. The information is valued but it alone is never the goal. Some decks play it to generate tokens, to use as mana with Delve or to reduce the deck size in combo builds. These extra features is what gives the card its power and what causes issues for its detractors.
A deck like DnT needs none of these extra features, so it ignores the card. While yes, the information would be valuable as DnT has a surprising amount of instant speed interaction, it gains no auxiliary benefit from playing the card. Therefore it is not a consideration for inclusion. (And Thalia fucks it.) The same holds true for Elves and Lands. The deck on my previous list that I feel would most like to have the information effect alone is Eldrazi. As knowing what lock piece or creature to play early can change the whole Tempo of the game. This ability is left on the cutting room floor not because it's use is not valued but because Chalice is more versatile and effective in the decks game plan.
I'm not arguing for a ban, I do though think that looking at the card as nothing more than an slower and cheaper Peek is reductive and unproductive. If all the card did was Peek with no second hand effects created by deck building I think it would see far less play.
Yeah man Deathrite is barely played because storm combo decks don't play it (although I did see people trying it out in Storm) and now you're saying Bug Thresh has never been a thing. Fair enough, fits the theme of your posts. I guess you also forgot to include Turbo Depths in your list of decks that don't play DRS either
Oh wait... what?
You can keep trying to "ridicule" me for referring to DRS as a planeswalker (it clearly is not an actual planeswalker, but it certainly acts like one) and deny that you're attacking how I say things without actually adding to the argument about why DRS shouldn't be banned, but this is still the reality of the format right now.
Last edited by Hanni; 03-14-2018 at 12:44 PM.
Not to be a complete asshat, but actually several Turbo Depths lists have played DRS in their lists, as recently as GP Madrid, alongside Dark Confidant to play a longer game that isn't as 'all-in'. I understand your point however, that the dtb as it stand does not use DRS, and I am in no way advocating a ban on DRS (or Gitaxian Probe, or any other card TBH.) I dislike True Name Nemesis the most, but it's still not ban-worthy if I follow my own advice. Do I wish Wild Nacatl was still playable? Hell yes! But the fact that it isn't does not make my unhappy, it just makes me dig for other options.
One of my favorite quotes (unsure of the source) is this: "Days go by slowly, years go by quickly." I think Legacy fits that bill pretty closely. It may seem drudging and uneventful when powerful strategies take their turn as DTB, but it eventually changes and the landscape a year from now will look different. I always appreciated the sentiment of 'wait for the format to adjust', as long as there has been a reasonable amount of time/events that have passed. I remember when Scepter/Chant required sideboard slots because it was the premier prison deck of the format.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I guess this was a clever hint at a 12/12 for 1 mana Phyrexian Dreadnought being unplayable while DRS is everywhere.
I am convinced the topic of the role of Tarmogoyf in old decks like Supreme Blue flies over the heads of the people who didn't play at the time and never saw the Goyf used as a board control element against aggro, which switches to killcon in the lategame. Goyf + Countertop was a deck able to beat combo AND aggro which was a major feat
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