View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21701
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    No, I meant Emrak and Brand in Modern. People forget, but before Phoenix and Hogaak made various GY hate cards the most played stuff in the format, there were a lot of stupid Modern decks based around Goryo's Vengeance stupidity, but that deck did take a big hit with the loss of looting. We'll see how the meta shakes out I guess. And I think that Tron alone justifies banning Stirrings at this point. The deck gained so much from the London Mulligan and new Karn, it's just objectively better than anything else you can be doing in modern right now.
    I hate these decks, but they were inconsistent enough before that they weren't really worth the bad feelings that a ban would have brought from players, "LOL modern gets bans on decks that don't even see regular top 8 what a trash format," etc.

    Them losing Faithless is absolutely gigantic in their consistency, which sucked before. I think they'll still see niche play, but are going to be much more inconsistent. Neoform on the other hand might bring back turn 1 Gris into a playable option.

  2. #21702

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    I hate these decks, but they were inconsistent enough before that they weren't really worth the bad feelings that a ban would have brought from players, "LOL modern gets bans on decks that don't even see regular top 8 what a trash format," etc.

    Them losing Faithless is absolutely gigantic in their consistency, which sucked before. I think they'll still see niche play, but are going to be much more inconsistent. Neoform on the other hand might bring back turn 1 Gris into a playable option.
    Keep in mind Force of Negation is now a thing - if that becomes more of a thing.
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  3. #21703
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    I hate these decks, but they were inconsistent enough before that they weren't really worth the bad feelings that a ban would have brought from players, "LOL modern gets bans on decks that don't even see regular top 8 what a trash format," etc.

    Them losing Faithless is absolutely gigantic in their consistency, which sucked before. I think they'll still see niche play, but are going to be much more inconsistent. Neoform on the other hand might bring back turn 1 Gris into a playable option.
    Banning cards that were broken by fair [normal 1-for-1 slanted] strategies is nothing new. ANT didn't get Probe banned, Grixis Delver did. DDFT & Painter didn't get SDT banned, miracles did. Saying Goryo's decks weren't hurting anyone isn't a reason to not ban a card that was clearly being exploited by non-committal strategies.

  4. #21704
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Banning cards that were broken by fair [normal 1-for-1 slanted] strategies is nothing new. ANT didn't get Probe banned, Grixis Delver did. DDFT & Painter didn't get SDT banned, miracles did. Saying Goryo's decks weren't hurting anyone isn't a reason to not ban a card that was clearly being exploited by non-committal strategies.
    Can you rephrase the last sentence? I can't understand what you mean.

  5. #21705
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Can you rephrase the last sentence? I can't understand what you mean.
    Phoenix-style decks aren't really combo, they aren't really disruptable. These types of decks do the most damage with cards like Looting. In the same way, Grixis Delver was not a disruptable deck, it hijacked Probe and got the card banned. You're not allowed to play fair decks and exploit mana/pseudo-mana loopholes (particularly when the loopholes are cantrips/consistency-positive).

    No one wanted to ban Looting b/c Goryo's existed. In the same way, no one wanted Probe banned b/c a deck like Storm was using it. It's unfortunate that decks like these are hit b/c of the sins of fair strats, but you still ban the problem card. You really need to be on top of problem cards like these when you have Fetchlands allowing fair decks linear & reliable access to 3-4 color tools.

  6. #21706
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Thank you. Yes, I agree.

  7. #21707
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Is anyone else as excited as I am at the prospect that wizards is thinking of unrestricting NECROPOTENCE(?!?!) in Vintage? That seems fucking nuts. And awesome. Plus, now you can play some broken Lands deck with Fastbond in Vintage; that is really exciting. I wonder if some base Black aggro-control thing could pop up with Necro unrestricted.
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  8. #21708

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amon Amarth View Post
    Is anyone else as excited as I am at the prospect that wizards is thinking of unrestricting NECROPOTENCE(?!?!) in Vintage? That seems fucking nuts. And awesome. Plus, now you can play some broken Lands deck with Fastbond in Vintage; that is really exciting. I wonder if some base Black aggro-control thing could pop up with Necro unrestricted.
    Where was this info posted?
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  9. #21709
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Where was this info posted?
    In the Banned and Restricted announcement itself:

    Since our philosophy is that Vintage should be about playing with access to all of Magic, we periodically re-examine the restricted list for cards that can create new decks and play patterns, even if they come with some risk. Recently, many players have suggested Fastbond as a card they would enjoy building with four copies of. Since most Vintage decks rely heavily on artifact mana and play fewer lands, chances are that a deck built around Fastbond would look quite different from anything in the current metagame. Other cards we've discussed unrestricting in the future are Windfall and Necropotence.
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  10. #21710
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by porcupinetreeman View Post
    Ban:

    Dark Depths
    Quote Originally Posted by porcupinetreeman View Post
    All these should be banned imo.

    Dark Depths
    Quote Originally Posted by porcupinetreeman View Post
    IMO Ban these for healthier meta

    Dark Depths
    So the card is doing really well in the format and it's beating up on Wrenn. I am going to go with a solid no on this foolish idea. Or, to quote someone better than I at this:
    Quote Originally Posted by LOLWut View Post
    Giving voice to the silent majority: Nah.
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  11. #21711
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    If only there were some 1-drop with 2 toughness which could blank Wrenn and Arcanist's yard abuse...
    If only there were some 1-drop that allowed different colors of Delver to challenge RUG...
    If only there were some 1-drop that could eat mighty Hogaak...

    Oh the irony of banning the wrong card [DRS] instead of Hymn. Mayhaps next time ban the card that made DRS unplayable by all not-Czech decks - except Elves (or Grixis Delver, though only as long as Probe was legal b/c they were never beating Czech without Probe/Therapy cheese). Methinks it's high time we allowed DRS to be brought back and played in random decks while all the xerox Wrenn shells add him as well and play the soul-killing form of mirror matches they so crave.

  12. #21712
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Do you really believe that the decks running w&6 wouldn't also run DRS? The format would be a no brainer 1 deck format.
    -rob

  13. #21713
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    Do you really believe that the decks running w&6 wouldn't also run DRS? The format would be a no brainer 1 deck format.
    Oh they're gonna be 4c no matter what between Wrenn and Vista/Astrolabe. Also, I made the point that they'd just run xerox Wrenn with DRS in my last post. The difference between this and Czech, is that playing the xerox shell without Hymn means you can't obliterate, flashback obliterate an opponent's hand; this allows not xerox to play DRS as they can have a hand with which to spend mana.

    Recall that in Czech times, you didn't have a hand...but even if you did, and you untapped with your DRS, there were exactly zero plays you had that could beat Shatter/Shock or flying deathtouch. Now if you tried to play xerox Wrenn/DRS vs not-xerox Wrenn/DRS, you're no longer auto-winning (and Hymn would be gone, so you can forget total hand destruction & hiding behind Strix).

    So there's no doubt DRS is a miserable card, but his text box and toughness need to be back in the format due to recent printings. Just need to do the prisoner exchange with Hymn so that non-blue DRS/Wrenn can actually compete vs Czech (Wrenn kills Strix, and dodges Shatter/Shock). This would be responsible format management: an environment friendly to increasing non-blue presence; decks which exist to troll down Delver presence.

    Now let's go to the next level of where the format is: the key play is 2cmc, ergo increase Spell Snare -> increase SnT's position -> Chancellor exists to hate out fair decks -> Grisel deck helps SnT's Grisel dodge bears. So DRS is good at breaking the positive feedback Grisel loop. Now it isn't great right, DRS can't get past a Chancellor trigger to come online before turn 3 in the not-blue deck...introducing Once Upon a Time to vindicate Chancellor triggers and bring DRS online 1 turn quicker.

    There really isn't a better time to unban him; for as miserable as this card is, and no matter how stupid DRS into Wrenn is, it'd be a net positive force in terms of format balance. DnT is already getting beat up (this also helps SnT), there really isn't much of an issue I can see with beating a dead horse by unleashing slew of not-blue DRS/Wrenn (and obligatory Engineers) which would further suppress DnT as they wait for new power creep'd duders to bail them out.

  14. #21714
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    So the card is doing really well in the format and it's beating up on Wrenn. I am going to go with a solid no on this foolish idea. Or, to quote someone better than I at this:
    You didn't quote me correctly tho. I think banned that along with a couple others would be healthy.

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  15. #21715
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    DRS would just make this format more of what it already is.
    -rob

  16. #21716
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by porcupinetreeman View Post
    You didn't quote me correctly tho.
    Oh no, I quoted you perfectly. Your out of your dam tree on Depths.

    In other news, there is no world where banning Hymn and leaving DRS in the format was going to solve anything. And I say this as someone that wholeheartedly misses being able to play 8 Strip mines with GQ. Card needed to die.

    Will admit it would be a neat answer to Wrenn though, but fixing the colours perfect so Wrenn is always a second turn play does not sound appealing.
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  17. #21717
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    DRS would just make this format more of what it already is.
    Looking at mtgtop8 you've got Lands, Loam, Jund, and some amount of Maverick'y-Depths'y stuff going on which use Wrenn on the not-blue side of things. Lands is a pretty distinctly different strategy, and Loam is only ever going to run 1x DRS b/c of Chalice. The left-over are ~1% plus unknown [Mav. Depths'y].

    You unban DRS and the non-blue share of legacy DRS+Wrenn decks is going to increase, and there is no reason to think a blue version of the same thing could hate them out of the meta to the extent that Czech did. You played a not-Elves, not-Grixis Delver deck back in the Czech days and your deck was worse Czech regardless of what colors or cards you chose to put around DRS - there was literally no combination that was ever going to beat Strix and Kcomm backed up by Snap/Hymn, precisely b/c you either had no hand or anything you could do died to the first 2 (Strix/Kcomm).

    So imagine Hymn is exchanged for DRS, and Wrenn in these not-blue decks makes Strix unplayable and doesn't die to Kcomm. These not-blue decks can suddenly pose significant problems to 4c Wrenn [xerox], as well as tournament-run-ending problems for RUG Delver. There's a significant difference between not-blue DRS decks having different cards + no hand vs having different cards + a hand.

    You can't undo Wrenn, Engineer, Vista, Astro, and (to a lesser extent) Dreadhorde; they're here to stay and they're going to be played mixed together in 4c soup. There are too many bans you have to make to reverse this, and WotC keeps printing rainbow Fetches (though the new one isn't quite so good). You can't really make the format "more of what it already is" - but you can sunder the soup into three distinct flavors: xerox value pile, RUG Delver, not-blue DRS/Wrenn. Right now there's a comparative dearth of not-blue Wrenn + dude decks; unbanning DRS would inject diversity into this population.

    Edit: one more thing on "more of what it already is" - unbanned DRS is anything but "more of what it already is" to RUG Delver.
    ---
    @Dice_Box
    Wrenn decks are already stupid, so adding DRS to their mirrors will only increase the stupidity factor. If anyone has ever played or watched Czech vs. Czech or Grixis Control vs. Grixis Control, it's fairly soul-killing. Like people have to get burned out and move on to different deck, because given enough time playing standard (i.e. hellbent jamming off the top mirrors), you just can't do it anymore. At least if you're playing something not-DRS/Wrenn you can at least dumpster them with yard hate. At the end of the day, Wrenn & co (aided by Depths and Chalice-combo'y decks) are keeping CB and Hymn marginalized, and when that happens everyone wins.

  18. #21718
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    there's some validity to the points, but it's not really a discussion worth having.
    -rob

  19. #21719
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I like how the theory is that if Deathrite were legal more non blue DRS Wren decks would pop up than DRS Wren Blue decks. How many times do you need to lie to yourself that all these cards are better than brainstorm and ponder?
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  20. #21720
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    @Megadeus no doubt they'd be played together in blue as well, but they're still playing all their cards to board which makes Brainstorm quite a bit less impactful. Ponder gives them great mana fixing early, but Once Upon a Time is a pretty good equalizer. If your deck has ~20 slots of lands, and another 20 slots of Wrenn/DRS/FoW/BS/Ponder...you still have to beat whatever the not-blue Wrenn/DRS guy is doing. So blue deck needs to get to 16 blue so we'll add 2x JTMS and 2x SCM; they need some interactive black stuff so 2x Seize, 2x Decay, 1x Engineer, 1x card that deals with Lage, b/c DRS is back they'll need at least 2 more 1-drop removals that kill him, let's add like 2x Lilly, and 1x Kcomm or two b/c value and a 1x Gurmag. So ~4 slots left, and we'll just say this will be 4x Arcanist to fill out the list (though this would be a stupid choice to make non-blue's 4x sideboard Leyline better against an even wider slice of the meta). That's a pile of good cards, there's a lot of value, but you don't automatically win against non-blue DRS/Wrenn. This is all probably more analysis than we need though; the first deck to stick DRS + Wrenn and find a Wasteland should just win. You've got one deck with some cantrips to find Wrenn quicker vs opponent who has a higher density of things that check or pressure Wrenn...seems like a toss-up.

    One thing for sure though, is RUG Delver has to deal with way more significant problems. The best Delver deck becomes 1-Trop Grixis [likely], except this time none of that Probe/Therapy stuff so good luck beating the bigger mana version of the same strategy with more 2-for-1s, and by the way there's a non-blue version floating around too (and if there's one thing they can beat, it's Delver).

    Yes cantrip cartel is great and all, but old Grixis Delver and Czech never had to play against the not-blue DRS deck without total hand obliteration tools. Not so easy to call this one in favor of Ponder/BS anymore.

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