View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #19601
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The justification for banning Probe is no justification at all. Either someone's asleep at the wheel or a social media intern has been making calls far above his paygrade.

    Bad times friend ahead.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Bad times friend ahead.
    Wait, the bad times start now? Shit. And here I was thinking the bad times started in earnest about 6 years ago. Thanks for setting that straight, I never would have known Legacy was not yet a dumpster fire but was going to now become one. How could I be so naive?
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
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  3. #19603
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    The justification for banning Probe is no justification at all. Either someone's asleep at the wheel or a social media intern has been making calls far above his paygrade.

    Bad times friend ahead.
    Have you ever read any other "justification" for any B&R decision? They are always double-speak-nonsense. This one isn't different or even egregious.

    How long until the collective is begging for a Delver ban, again, though? Or who will be our savior and ask for a Thalia ban? We all know how broken grizzly bears are.

    Mana denial is back on the menu though kids, prepare accordingly...
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  4. #19604
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Finally a breath of fresh air.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    ....

    Bad times friend ahead.
    For those frustrated without even playing the new format and wanting to quit. If you are based in Europe send me a PM i might be interested to buy some of your cards

  5. #19605

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook View Post
    #freenedleeds
    What is a nedled?

  6. #19606

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    Or you name fow and then go off
    Name FOW game one, go off and win.
    Get blown out by something different,
    name that game 3 and go off and win, again.

  7. #19607
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    What is a nedled?
    Wow. Has it really been that long?

    He was the premier troll on The Source. Funny, but didn't know when to stop. I can't prove it (and honestly don't give a fuck) but I would say if he had a new account here it would be Brainstorm Ape. Got banned a long time ago. I miss that cocky arsehole.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  8. #19608
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Wow. Has it really been that long?

    He was the premier troll on The Source. Funny, but didn't know when to stop. I can't prove it (and honestly don't give a fuck) but I would say if he had a new account here it would be Brainstorm Ape. Got banned a long time ago. I miss that cocky arsehole.
    Green is dead, long live Red.

    Deathrite is dead, long live Delver.

    Nedleeds is dead, long live Brainstorm_Ape.

    Legacy is dead, long live Legacy.
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  9. #19609
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Wait, the bad times start now? Shit. And here I was thinking the bad times started in earnest about 6 years ago. Thanks for setting that straight, I never would have known Legacy was not yet a dumpster fire but was going to now become one. How could I be so naive?
    I'm talking about their argument for banning Probe and what it implies. This isn't even "gentleman's agreement." This is "we don't like it so even though it's objectively fine we're getting rid of it."

    That's a new low to me. Sure, I haven't played the format for as long as you have, but when they preface their conclusion with "While Gitaxian Probe's impact on the Legacy environment hasn't necessarily reached a boiling point," we have gone far past the stage where they could make an argument that they're even paying attention.
    All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
    PM me if you want to contribute!
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    Just in time for Valentines Day 💝

    Roses are red, violets are blue
    Omae wa mou shindeiru
    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Quick question, are you also still waiting for the great pumpkin it did you finally pick it in once December hit?
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.

  10. #19610
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    I'm talking about their argument for banning Probe and what it implies. This isn't even "gentleman's agreement." This is "we don't like it so even though it's objectively fine we're getting rid of it."
    Oh my sweet child, I'm so sorry. You expected something of substance and reason out of Wotc and got let down. Treat anything Wotc says as if it had come from your local politician and give it as much weight. Seriously. It will help with the disappointment. Because that's all Wotc really has to offer you, disappointment.

    Wotc and Legacy have a lot in common with an abusive relationship, we get straps, ignored, cut off and then expected to be grateful when they give us back the GPs they took away the year before. Trust me mate, I know we don't really get along but trust me in this, never expect anything from them and then they will never let you down.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  11. #19611

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    #MakeCabalTherapySkillIntensiveAgain

  12. #19612

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Thoughts (in general and in response to some other comments)

    1. The Probe ban is great for all the stated reasons (if you think this is 'no justification' then you're either dishonest or an idiot)
    2. I don't mind a DRS format or a no DRS format, I think no-DRS might be slightly better because deck selection is a more meaningful decision when you can't play any card in your blue list, and tempo decks not having mana dorks in them makes the die roll less important
    3. The biggest danger of the DRS ban is that DRS was holding back degenerate graveyard decks. I think that even with DRS these decks were mostly a FoW/SB check anyway, so I don't think the percentages change too much, but this is something that needs to be tracked
    4. DNT seems like it might be the biggest winner, not only because a mana dork helped to play around spells being taxed, but also because it's a lot harder for blue decks to support the color requirements of hosers like Kolaghans Command and Liliana the Last Hope without DRS
    5. Manaless Dredge gets a boost from no DRS but it's likely going to be balanced by an uptick in Leylines and Surgicals if everybody expects Entomb/Loam decks to take off
    6. Rector (both kinds) and High Tide become much stronger, it still might not be enough to make them relevant
    7. Goblins becomes slightly stronger as the only deck that struggles to attack into a 1/2 on turn 2. This might also apply to Glistener Elf to some degree but I think the loss of Probe is more significant for that deck
    8. With Kolaghans Command likely on a downswing, reduced mana fixing to help cast Leovold, and a lack of another compelling reason to play green (Decay?), Esper Stoneblade might see a resurgence as the premier midrange blue deck (Bant TNN is an option but that deck utilized all 8 manadorks before, the loss of DRS might be too important)
    9. Grixis is still a relatively appealing color combination, but a significant part of a midrange/control Grixis list is the therapy/pyromancer interaction which becomes much worse when probe is illegal
    10. Dark Depths' niche ('combo deck immune to any commonly played BURG card') starts to look less appealing if people start playing Swords to Plowshares again
    11. Elves seems to become significantly worse when they don't have as many 'must kill' targets, and not having DRS probably makes the midrange gameplan much less viable
    12. I wouldn't be too optimistic as a miracles player if the default tempo deck goes back to being the one with Nimble Mongoose in it
    13. Any deck relying on DRS to not look like a clunky shitpile probably falls off the map entirely (Food Chain, Aluren, maybe Nic Fit, Shardless, Jund)
    14. Zero unbans is still disappointing (Earthcraft/Mindtwist/Recruiter etc)

  13. #19613
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zllig View Post
    #MakeCabalTherapySkillIntensiveAgain
    Well, now there is something I can get behind.
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  14. #19614
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    I'm talking about their argument for banning Probe and what it implies. This isn't even "gentleman's agreement." This is "we don't like it so even though it's objectively fine we're getting rid of it."

    That's a new low to me. Sure, I haven't played the format for as long as you have, but when they preface their conclusion with "While Gitaxian Probe's impact on the Legacy environment hasn't necessarily reached a boiling point," we have gone far past the stage where they could make an argument that they're even paying attention.
    Really, it's because they won't ban brainstorm, and that was just the sugar coated version they printed to make everyone feel better. If they won't ban brainstorm, ponder/preordain are indefensible bannings because there is no universe where you can say that brainstorm is fine but ponder/preordain need to go. With probe, there are reasons to ban the card that are due to the nature of the card and the gameplay it creates, and the whole information thing which everyone here gets up in arms.

    Deathrite Shaman needed to go and they needed to ban something to lower the overall velocity of the cantrip shell.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goin Aggro View Post
    Ugh, there he goes again, talking about the girlfriend. We get it dude.

  15. #19615
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Guess Elves drops Black :(

  16. #19616

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Thoughts (in general and in response to some other comments)
    ...
    13. Any deck relying on DRS to not look like a clunky shitpile probably falls off the map entirely (Food Chain, Aluren, maybe Nic Fit, Shardless, Jund)
    ...
    Are those first twos really reliant on DRS? I would expect combo decks to get less utility from tapping stuff than grindy decks do.

  17. #19617
    ..sry, whut? ◔̯◔
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    Really, it's because they won't ban brainstorm, and that was just the sugar coated version they printed to make everyone feel better. If they won't ban brainstorm, ponder/preordain are indefensible bannings because there is no universe where you can say that brainstorm is fine but ponder/preordain need to go. With probe, there are reasons to ban the card that are due to the nature of the card and the gameplay it creates, and the whole information thing which everyone here gets up in arms.

    Deathrite Shaman needed to go and they needed to ban something to lower the overall velocity of the cantrip shell.

    Brainstorm is 5 leagues above the other cantrips. If you dont recognize that, you honestly shouldnt be playing competitive magic.

    But I thought we already passed the point and discuss the ban of fetchlands instead.
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  18. #19618

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Humphrey View Post
    Brainstorm is 5 leagues above the other cantrips. If you dont recognize that, you honestly shouldnt be playing competitive magic.

    But I thought we already passed the point and discuss the ban of fetchlands instead.
    He clearly stated that, given that brainstorm is much stronger than any other cantrip, it's impossible for wiz to ban any other straight cantrip without looking like dumbasses, while with probe they can at least say that the op effect is the free peek (which is true)
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  19. #19619

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    Really, it's because they won't ban brainstorm, and that was just the sugar coated version they printed to make everyone feel better. If they won't ban brainstorm, ponder/preordain are indefensible bannings because there is no universe where you can say that brainstorm is fine but ponder/preordain need to go. With probe, there are reasons to ban the card that are due to the nature of the card and the gameplay it creates, and the whole information thing which everyone here gets up in arms.

    Deathrite Shaman needed to go and they needed to ban something to lower the overall velocity of the cantrip shell.
    Well put.

  20. #19620
    ..sry, whut? ◔̯◔
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    He clearly stated that, given that brainstorm is much stronger than any other cantrip, it's impossible for wiz to ban any other straight cantrip without looking like dumbasses, while with probe they can at least say that the op effect is the free peek (which is true)
    ok, misinterpretation by me.
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