View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #22461

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The real question is how inbred the online meta is - what is the split of these events of total decks with and without companions?

    ....
    From what we have seen in the past, they rely on mtgo as a metric for this type of decisions, also from what we have seen in the past, the published league results can be discounted, but the main events are a good representation of what's happening in general. Having said that, from the latest league published, the most played cards are:

    1 Brainstorm 50.00%
    2 Force of Will 48.15%
    3 Ponder 46.30%
    3 Lurrus of the Dream Den 42.59%

    So, even the leagues, with fudged published results have 42.59% of the decks running Lurrus. (btw, the second most played creature was.... 2 Walking Ballista 18.52%)

  2. #22462

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Update: found out today that my LGS is closing down permanently. It won't be the only one to do so....!
    Yeah, I have a sneaky feeling it will be far widespread. Our local shop survives on the back of events where they pack the shop shoulder-to-shoulder. This will not be allowed anywhere in the near-medium future, actually it's unlikely they will be able to even open for a good couple of months. The new normal (social distancing) will mean the end to the big release events in there and without those...

  3. #22463
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    At least there are diverse archetypes of fair decks, but the format has warped around 1 card that players always have every game.
    Name change incoming: Lurrus, the Gathering. You start with 20 life and Lurrus. Yay! #sarcasm
    Brainstorm Realist

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  4. #22464
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Name change incoming
    Lurrus, the BS Gathering Yay! #sarcasm

  5. #22465

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    Lurrus, the BS Gathering Yay! #sarcasm
    Lurrus seems like an odd choice for the face of mtg. Completely neuters their pw's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  6. #22466

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    Lurrus seems like an odd choice for the face of mtg. Completely neuters their pw's.
    Can't wait for companion planeswalkers!

  7. #22467
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Can't wait for companion planeswalkers!
    I hate companions, I hate Planeswalkers. You've successfully described my personal hell
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  8. #22468

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    This is the first time since I started playing legacy that I'm considering just getting out. If something isn't done about companions I'm going to just start playing commander. At least in that format I could do weird shit and still have fun.
    I know those feels. Used to play Maverick, had to sell out to fund study abroad a couple years ago, and recently considered buying into D&T since my situation got good enough to justify spending money. Then Wrenn&6 happened, got really excited to see that banned, and now this companion nonsense. I mean yeah Lurrus and Taxes exist but I don't want to invest in something that will (hopefully) get banned.

  9. #22469
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sella View Post
    I know those feels. Used to play Maverick, had to sell out to fund study abroad a couple years ago, and recently considered buying into D&T since my situation got good enough to justify spending money. Then Wrenn&6 happened, got really excited to see that banned, and now this companion nonsense. I mean yeah Lurrus and Taxes exist but I don't want to invest in something that will (hopefully) get banned.
    I'm in the same camp; all legacy buying/deckbuilding/tweaking is on hold until further notice. I can't play Legacy anyways, I might as well just wait it out and make changes when a location opens up to play. My LGS is closed, but there is a glimmer of hope from the core Legacy players. We're trying to line up a location to do something on a monthly basis (after quarantine is over, of course.) My first suggestion was a bar, lol. Jack 'Turbo Depths' Daniels is up for a challenge!
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  10. #22470

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I'm in the same camp; all legacy buying/deckbuilding/tweaking is on hold until further notice. I can't play Legacy anyways, I might as well just wait it out and make changes when a location opens up to play. My LGS is closed, but there is a glimmer of hope from the core Legacy players. We're trying to line up a location to do something on a monthly basis (after quarantine is over, of course.) My first suggestion was a bar, lol. Jack 'Turbo Depths' Daniels is up for a challenge!
    Hell yeah, I do love me some Turbo Depths. Last game I played was actually a list with Overgrown Tombs since I didn't want to shell out for Bayous lol. Only got to play it once before the local Legacy scene died (worst timing ever) but it was fun somehow misplaying into wins against every flavor of blue deck that'd given me hell throughout the years.

  11. #22471
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sella View Post
    Hell yeah, I do love me some Turbo Depths. Last game I played was actually a list with Overgrown Tombs since I didn't want to shell out for Bayous lol. Only got to play it once before the local Legacy scene died (worst timing ever) but it was fun somehow misplaying into wins against every flavor of blue deck that'd given me hell throughout the years.
    I am not a great player, and I agree that Turbo Depths is fairly forgiving in that aspect. You can make small misplays and still go: "oh yeah, make a 20/20, gg." The amount of top-deck wins I get with that deck is higher than any other deck I've played. I loved playing against Delver variants. I didn't always win, but the matchup was very comfortable. I got into Turbo Depths when Miracles was on a steep decline, so I saw some decent success at the LGS. For me, nothing beats Depths with Deathrite Shaman though, that was my favorite legacy deck ever. Win with a 20/20 or grind them out with DRS, Dark Confidant, and Hexmage beats.

    Just wait, I'll be playing against some salty guy drinking seltzer while I'm half-in-the-bag and attacking for twenty. Dude, get yourself a margarita to go with that salt.

    On a serious note, does anybody think Lurrus escapes the next ban announcement?
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  12. #22472

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    ...
    On a serious note, does anybody think Lurrus escapes the next ban announcement?
    I would say no, can't remember last time I saw anything like this (where a new card instantly slots into vintage decks and they all move to the top):

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/vintage#online

    Lurrus delver is now nearing 19% of legacy meta:

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online

    And since the card is not that dominant (yet?) in standard , they can safely ban it in the older formats and leave around in standard, thus still selling packs.

  13. #22473
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    On a serious note, does anybody think Lurrus escapes the next ban announcement?
    Well, there is no schedule, so it's unlikely there will be a ban announcement at all until they deem it "time" to ban Lurrus.

    When will that be? Who knows. It seems unlikely (but not impossible) that it could be this month, but considering that most places have yet to even get or distribute paper product yet, I'd imagine it more likely to be a month or so away.

    One good thing about Lurrus, though, at least, is that it doesn't just go in "one deck" ike Breach did. That's not actually true, in the strict sense, but while Lurrus might be 19%, at least it isn't as if there is only one or two realistically competitive ways to build it. Lurrus just goes in anything and everything...
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  14. #22474

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Well, there is no schedule, so it's unlikely there will be a ban announcement at all until they deem it "time" to ban Lurrus.

    When will that be? Who knows. It seems unlikely (but not impossible) that it could be this month, but considering that most places have yet to even get or distribute paper product yet, I'd imagine it more likely to be a month or so away.

    One good thing about Lurrus, though, at least, is that it doesn't just go in "one deck" ike Breach did. That's not actually true, in the strict sense, but while Lurrus might be 19%, at least it isn't as if there is only one or two realistically competitive ways to build it. Lurrus just goes in anything and everything...
    That's true, my issue with it is just the sheer inevitability it has because Companion. Plus I guess I'm just salty that it goes in everything except the stuff I was hyped to play (I just want to jam some Flickerwhisps dammit!)

    This actually reminds me of a similar situation in the now-defunct(?) Force of Will TCG with Reflect/Refrain (Force of Will had a built-in Commander-esque mechanic and RefRef was basically a better JtMS with no mana cost that you could stick in the command zone). The format was actually pretty diverse since the free consistency helped out more or less any strategy, but eventually the card got hit since it made every other interesting Commander obsolete and severely limited future card design.

    Anyways, although I sincerely hope that Lurrus is as bad as it gets, it really does show how little Wizards cares about eternal formats when they make a Commander mechanic for standard play *and then* print a Companion that offers free recursion as long as you stick to low CMC. Anybody with half a brain and access to some stock Delver list off MTGoldfish could have told them that was a bad idea.

    I can see arguments for just banning Lurrus and letting the other stuff stick, but just nuking the entire mechanic for eternal archetypes is worth consideration. I really don't feel like trusting Wizards not to print some dumb shit in another couple months and throw us all for a loop again, and again, and again.

  15. #22475

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post

    On a serious note, does anybody think Lurrus escapes the next ban announcement?
    Yes, because Mishra's/Urza's Bauble will be convenient scapegoats.

  16. #22476
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sella View Post
    Anyways, although I sincerely hope that Lurrus is as bad as it gets, it really does show how little Wizards cares about eternal formats when they make a Commander mechanic for standard play *and then* print a Companion that offers free recursion as long as you stick to low CMC. Anybody with half a brain and access to some stock Delver list off MTGoldfish could have told them that was a bad idea.

    I can see arguments for just banning Lurrus and letting the other stuff stick, but just nuking the entire mechanic for eternal archetypes is worth consideration. I really don't feel like trusting Wizards not to print some dumb shit in another couple months and throw us all for a loop again, and again, and again.
    Well, I agree, but they have fairly explicitly stated that they don't really consider Eternal formats when designing cards. Which, I actually think is false in one sense, but clearly also true in that they often do not check interactions all that thoroughly, even for Modern.

    While I floated the idea of just a blanket Companion mechanic ban, I think it is plausible that they first just ban Lurrus, then when it is realized that the rest don't shake out all that well still, they ban the whole mechanic. In that way, they can prop up sales a while longer, while still marketing the sentiment that they are doing something about it.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  17. #22477
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The issue is lack of compensation to decks without companions. While it's nice that an opponent has to kinda tell you what they're on before a mill decision, why is okay that all their mulls cost 1 card less and the no-companion mulls still cost 1 card? Why don't they lose their companion and a card if they don't keep a hand of 7?

    This is an incredibly easy rules fix of non-companion decks making all mulls at discounted penalty (mull to 6 is now mull to 7, mull to 5 is now mull to 6...), while other decks wait for WotC to print a companion they can use.

  18. #22478
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    One good thing about Lurrus, though, at least, is that it doesn't just go in "one deck" ike Breach did. That's not actually true, in the strict sense, but while Lurrus might be 19%, at least it isn't as if there is only one or two realistically competitive ways to build it. Lurrus just goes in anything and everything...
    It's a pretty simple argument, with precedent, to ban Lurrus because it is going in everything: both Mental Misstep and Survival of the Fittest were banned not solely on power level but also on ubiquity. If you played green, you had to play Survival to compete, and Survival was tier 0. Mental Misstep was in every deck, almost literally (not exactly sure on the saturation levels, it was a while ago.)

    TL,DR - If a card goes in anything and everything, and those decks are tier 1, Mental Misstep and Survival of the Fittest tell us that it will be banned.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  19. #22479
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Well, I agree, but they have fairly explicitly stated that they don't really consider Eternal formats when designing cards. Which, I actually think is false in one sense, but clearly also true in that they often do not check interactions all that thoroughly, even for Modern.
    WOTC employs a ton of former pro players, many of them Legacy players. It is unlikely these snuck through without at least a warning about power level.

    EDIT: 'These' meaning Underworld Breach, W6, and Lurrus.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  20. #22480
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    It's a pretty simple argument, with precedent, to ban Lurrus because it is going in everything: both Mental Misstep and Survival of the Fittest were banned not solely on power level but also on ubiquity. If you played green, you had to play Survival to compete, and Survival was tier 0. Mental Misstep was in every deck, almost literally (not exactly sure on the saturation levels, it was a while ago.)

    TL,DR - If a card goes in anything and everything, and those decks are tier 1, Mental Misstep and Survival of the Fittest tell us that it will be banned.
    Well, I wasn't making a case against banning it, of course. Only pointing out that, to me, this isn't a "worst-case" of needing a ban. Just a bad-case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    WOTC employs a ton of former pro players, many of them Legacy players. It is unlikely these snuck through without at least a warning about power level.

    EDIT: 'These' meaning Underworld Breach, W6, and Lurrus.
    Well, I agree, but knowledge and caring can be world apart. In fact, (I think it was) Barook already posted the article, from Wizards themselves, where they explicitly stated that a companion-like mechanic was horribly broken. So, what changed? I don't think it is knowledge...
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