View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #22841

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    So, is legacy pretty stable right now? I can't think of anything that needs a banning. Annoying cards for sure (Oko, Astrolabe, Uro, Veil of Summer, the usual bullshit) but nothing ban-worthy. It looks like we might actually get a set (Zendikar Rising) without rotating the format, too.
    Literally half of what you mentioned is ban worthy.

  2. #22842
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Literally half of what you mentioned is ban worthy.
    Meh, I don't think so. I highly doubt any of those get a ban other than maybe Oko due to it being banned in several other formats. The others are good, but not too good. I don't see Astrolabe getting much play if Oko gets banned. I stand by my point that those cards are annoying, but not ban-worthy.
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  3. #22843
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Literally half of what you mentioned is ban worthy.
    maybe oko. the rest are ok.

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by KobeBryan View Post
    maybe oko. the rest are ok.
    I guess this issue has been hashed out a thousand times, but I don't see how Oko is a bigger offender than Astrolabe. Oko is easy enough to Red Blast. As long as Astrolabe is legal, 5c Snowpile with the latest and greatest broken value cards is going to be a permanent fixture of the format. I guess I just think it's dumb that a blue-white deck playing mostly basics gets to splash Abrupt Decay. Unlike, Sensei's Diving Top and Deathrite Shaman which were easy enough to shut off with Pithing Needle, Astrolabe is very difficult card to punish someone for playing. The only vulnerability is loss of tempo, but Astrolabe players get to make up for this by playing an unassailable mana-base and all the best answers regardless of color.

  5. #22845
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The thing that people don't seem to get is that Oko is a Flametongue Kavu vs pretty much any other existing source of recurring value source which sits on the battlefield, particularly other PWs. Any 1-drop trinket that cantrips without going to the graveyard makes the previous statement all the more true - Oko gets to turbo down enemy PWs without any fear of summoning sickness coming into the equation. The card doing the job of Council's Judgement is now a 1-card combo that takes over the game; a barely watered-down highly undercosted 3 mana Apex Predator.

    Gotta stop mentioning cards that aren't anywhere near Oko's league. Ban Astro = really, we need to buff RUG Delver do we? Ban Veil = ban yet another card to protect Hymn to Tourach [Cruise, Dig, SDT, Breach, Lurrus, Wrenn]? Ban Uro/Dreadhorde = maybe don't ban DRS next time?

  6. #22846
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The thing that people don't seem to get is that Oko is a Flametongue Kavu vs pretty much any other existing source of recurring value source which sits on the battlefield, particularly other PWs. Any 1-drop trinket that cantrips without going to the graveyard makes the previous statement all the more true - Oko gets to turbo down enemy PWs without any fear of summoning sickness coming into the equation. The card doing the job of Council's Judgement is now a 1-card combo that takes over the game; a barely watered-down highly undercosted 3 mana Apex Predator.

    Gotta stop mentioning cards that aren't anywhere near Oko's league. Ban Astro = really, we need to buff RUG Delver do we? Ban Veil = ban yet another card to protect Hymn to Tourach [Cruise, Dig, SDT, Breach, Lurrus, Wrenn]? Ban Uro/Dreadhorde = maybe don't ban DRS next time?
    You raise a good point that RUG is going to dominate if Astrolabe is banned. However, RUG is fairly narrow strategy with exploitable weaknesses (non-basic mana base, removal, Carpet of Flowers). I am a RUG Delver player so maybe I'm biased about the desirability of that outcome. I do agree that poor ban list management is a major contributing factor. I would definitely be interested in at least trying a metagame with DRS and Top unbanned. It's at least hard to imagine the same deck playing DRS, Top AND Astrolabe so there might be some different flavors of control there.

  7. #22847

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Yes, let's have both astrolabe and DRS in the format.
    Who needs mana management anyway.
    The one biggest factors to the reduction of diversity in the format is not only the printing of stupid cards, but the minimal opportunity costs for splashing stuff.

    Until they print playable 1 mana removal that can also hit PWs, Oko should be banned.
    3 mana and potentially 6 starting loyalty binds too many resources getting rid of him if he doesn't take over the game completely anyway.

    Veil of Summer is going to be banned at some point because it does both, the thing it's supposed to and the opposite.
    It's fine to try to give green/creature based strategies a tool to combat control but they forgot to make it only creature spells that are uncounterable.
    Even though that is still crowbar design, it's better than a card that can also be used to protect combo from almost any kind of interaction.

  8. #22848
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I tend to agree that Oko is the main problem, just because it's able to answer onboard answers to it, like for instance Tombstalker (not that anyone else plays it) or a big Knight on an empty board. With that said, even if Oko was banned this weekend would that make the format appealing again?

    - Astrolabe & Vista letting people play 4-5 colour decks with Back to Basics is kinda dumb but not the end of the world;
    - Uro/Arcanist create snowball games (and when Uro stabilises it tends to just take over games all by itself) but again, not the end of the world by themselves;
    - Plague Engineer punishes those stupid enough to *checks notes* play a tier 2 Tribal deck;
    - Veil of Summer is supposed to help out non-blue fair decks like Jund or adjacent type decks but I don't even know what non-blue decks are playing it. I know TES did well recently playing 4 maindeck though and that my most favourite deck of all time, Sneak and Show is also splashing green for it (among other things also mentioned on this list). Turning off discard as an angle of attack hurts the decks without Force of Will more, no?

    The problem IMO is not limited to just one card or even two. In a vacuum none of these cards are really all that annoying but put together they make legacy kinda tiresome.

    I don't even know how one would fix the format at this point to make it more enjoyable, if that could even be measured to everyone's standards - there are just so many cards that can make one's magic experience miserable, starting at Delver and Griselbrand and ending at whatever was most recently printed, and by that I mean cards that absolutely *have* to be answered or just either kill you on the spot (Dark Depths) or effectively win the game most of the time once they land (Oko/Uro/Dreadhorde).

    I only post the above to ask this question: does anyone else feel this way?
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    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
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    It's amazing people still get a kick from pointing out how good fetchlands are with DRS and cantrips etc. It's like it's some secret that they're graciously unveiling for the rest of us.

    'Brainstorm and DRS are very powerful cards...'

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  9. #22849

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    The problem IMO is not limited to just one card or even two. In a vacuum none of these cards are really all that annoying but put together they make legacy kinda tiresome.

    I only post the above to ask this question: does anyone else feel this way?
    Welcome to any format in the last years.
    At this point, there is so much degenerate garbage around, even if you ban something, the next slightly less/different degenerate card is there to take it's place.

    For legacy, I really think banning all fetches would make the format vastly more enjoyable.
    Brainstorm would be shit.
    Mana bases would be a lot more vulnerable and you couldn't just easily play 15_color_goodstuff.dec.
    Strategies that rely on a filled GY would also be a lot weaker.

    As long as the reserved list still stands, this is highly unlikely/undesirable, as the prices would get even more astronomical.
    This is also likely the reason stuff from the reserved list like Earthcraft, Yawgmoth's Bargain, and Wheel of Fortune are still banned.
    Unbanned it would either be garbage and meaningless or playable, expensive and format warping so there is little to be gained.

  10. #22850
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    The problem IMO is not limited to just one card or even two. In a vacuum none of these cards are really all that annoying but put together they make legacy kinda tiresome.

    I don't even know how one would fix the format at this point to make it more enjoyable, if that could even be measured to everyone's standards - there are just so many cards that can make one's magic experience miserable, starting at Delver and Griselbrand and ending at whatever was most recently printed, and by that I mean cards that absolutely *have* to be answered or just either kill you on the spot (Dark Depths) or effectively win the game most of the time once they land (Oko/Uro/Dreadhorde).

    I only post the above to ask this question: does anyone else feel this way?
    I do mostly agree and post my view more or less regularly so sorry if it's repetition. I think Legacy would be more enjoyable, more varied and less snowbally without these cards, promoting interaction and more interesting games. But, I think it's risky getting rid of cards like Griselbrand that have a lot of archetypes and players depending on them, it's always a risk when banning cards that you get disappointed players who invested time and resources into a deck.

    As for the other cards, I think it's important to separate between cards that are bad and cards that are really bad for format diversity. W6 was really bad, and so is Oko, imo. Cards that make archetypes obsolete are not welcome, imo. Plague Engineer does have some such effect but much less powerful, again imo, like Elves is still a very successful deck even if PE is heavily played, Thalia and Mother of runes are losing a lot of play which is partly due to PE but probably more due to Oko (or equally, I think equipment being bad is worse for those decks than losing a few x/1 humans). I think the format benefits from PE leaving but we can still have a good format with it around, while Oko is on the wrong side of that border. I think Arcanist and to a lesser extent Uro don't make the format or gameplay more interesting but they can both be handled rather easily. If Oko wasn't around then Chalice would easily neutralize Arcanist, similarly if Astrolabe didn't exist then Uro would not be a problem since Wasteland would limit its use. Which illustrates that the problem is with Oko and Astrolabe primarily. I even think that without Oko and Astrolabe, Uro can be spawning a unique archetype which actually benefits the format.

    Astrolabe seemingly enabling 5c goodstuff is why we can't have it around, imo.

    And again, Veil is frustrating to play against but it's a worse card than Pyroblast and it perfectly balances Hymn to Tourach decks like no ther card can. I think the format benefits from it, it adds an interesting layer in the deck building decisions about whether you run discard or counterspells or permanents to interact with your opponent, it's a net positive for format diversity and health buuut it's frustrating to play against.

  11. #22851
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    Welcome to any format in the last years.
    At this point, there is so much degenerate garbage around, even if you ban something, the next slightly less/different degenerate card is there to take it's place.
    We've been aware of Legacy's slow journey towards the same place as Vintage for years: you play broken shit, usually a combo, alongside the best possible cards in the format. I don't mean to misrepresent Vintage, but one thing I do know is that there are fewer competitive decks available in that format compared to Legacy. The older the format gets, the more powerful the cards get, the closer you get to Vintage templating. When Zoo became unplayable and the best aggressive deck became Delver I knew we were on that path. Without Bazaar we won't have op-Dredge and without Workshop we won't have op-Prison. So what's left? Blue-based decks that can play the exact cards needed to fight the format with any splash color they need, up to 4-5 colors if they want. So we don't have moxen, and instead we have Astrolabe. Games are going to get swingier as compact combos replace traditional threats. (Oko, Uro, Arcanist.)

    I've been thinking about this for a while, ever since The Rock and Jund became essentially unplayable because the best GBx shell is Dark Depths. Notice a correlation? I'm not saying those decks can't steal a tournament, but they are vastly less powerful than the combo-spectrum of Dark Depths. Zoo is replaced by Delver, Rock is replaced by Dark Depths, control variants become 3-4 color monstrosities because they can.

    Maybe I'm way off, but this is how I see the format. I see people wanting to have it the same as what everyone wanted Modern to be: a format where anything is playable. Modern went through the transition from open-ended to only-busted-decks way faster than Legacy will, simply due to the lack of format police (Wasteland, Daze, Force of Will.) However, I still see Legacy getting there eventually.
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  12. #22852
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    We've been aware of Legacy's slow journey towards the same place as Vintage for years: you play broken shit, usually a combo, alongside the best possible cards in the format. [...] The older the format gets, the more powerful the cards get, the closer you get to Vintage templating.
    So, if I got it right, your understanding of the format is basically the older it gets, the better cards exist, the more degenerate it is. I think we can quickly understand that this is not what's happening. If it was, then Legacy would always be more degenerate than Modern, but we all know that Legacy has been much more healthy and varied than Modern at many points of time over the past years. My understanding of format health has been that it's the balance of the power of the best cards (including answers, removal etc, but that's a separate discussion) that influence the format health, so in my previous post I argue that Oko is overpowered relative to other cards that fair decks use, it's not an inherent property of the age of the format or card or the amount of cards available in the format but rather it is a problem because of the power of Oko relative to other legal cards and banning this single card will level out the playing field again.

    Another observation contradicting this view of aging formats becoming degenerate, Legacy was by several people considered to be perhaps more healthy than ever before just before War of the Spark was released, at least I read several people state this at the time. A format can clearly improve.

    Another observation is that it was actually a rules change about legendary permanents that made Depths replace The Rock, so it was actually the rules change that increased the power level of an old card rather than a new printing. So, I guess that makes it an exception.

  13. #22853
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    it really depends on how people want to innovate with the format. there are definitely some strong cards and you can even say optimal cards for each given archetype. it is possible that many synergies have been overlooked.

    until the average skill level of legacy players is very high, you can play more or less whatever you want if you know what you're doing. it's possible that the modo metagame is a bit more hostile for this kind of approach to the game, but i can speak from experience for tabletop that i play whatever deck i want and my records are pretty consistent regardless of deck choice.
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  14. #22854

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    There is no incentive to break Legacy, otherwise the degeneracy would be more obvious (although probably not to the extreme Modern has been historically).

  15. #22855
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I think banning all fetches and Astrolab (AKA getting rid of perfect multicolored manabases and making BS weaker) and then unbanning DRS (weaker without fetches and providing some decent MD gravehate) would make the format interesting
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    I think banning all fetches and Astrolab (AKA getting rid of perfect multicolored manabases and making BS weaker) and then unbanning DRS (weaker without fetches and providing some decent MD gravehate) would make the format interesting

    Or ban brainstorm right

  17. #22857
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by KobeBryan View Post
    Or ban brainstorm right
    Eh - I recognize that it is a Sacred Cow of the Format.
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  18. #22858
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    So, if I got it right, your understanding of the format is basically the older it gets, the better cards exist, the more degenerate it is. I think we can quickly understand that this is not what's happening.
    I didn't write degenerate at all, look at the Zoo vs. Delver comparison. What I'm saying is that the format is narrowing, ie the more powerful the cards are that get printed the more cards get pushed out of the format. Delver isn't degenerate (discussion for another time) but it obsoleted Wild Nacatl handily. That's the argument I'm making.

    I also said this:

    Modern went through the transition from open-ended to only-busted-decks way faster than Legacy will, simply due to the lack of format police (Wasteland, Daze, Force of Will.) However, I still see Legacy getting there eventually.
    Modern got there quicker due to a lack of widely played, powerful 'policing' cards.

    If it was, then Legacy would always be more degenerate than Modern, but we all know that Legacy has been much more healthy and varied than Modern at many points of time over the past years.
    I didn't mention degenerate in my statement, you're introducing that as a definition. I didn't say degenerate, I said 'busted'. Both are vague terms, so let me define my perspective: busted means it's a tier zero deck, basically the best thing to be doing in the format. Whether that means a ban should happen or not is open for another debate, something I'm not really addressing. I already stated if anything Oko is the one ban I would support. Looking at Oko it's even more compact than Tinker + Time Vault/Blightsteel Colossus, or Oath of Druids + Best Beefy Dude (I'm assuming it's Griselbrand, but again I don't want to misrepresent a format I don't play. If I'm full of shit I'm sure someone will correct me, which I welcome.)

    My understanding of 'degenerate' is more akin to something like Underworld Breach, or in the old days Flash. Not only is it tier 0 but everyone is incentivized to either play it or play only strategies that beat it. Legacy is not at this point right now, which is why I don't advocate for a ban. I'm just saying the win conditions of Legacy are getting more compact, more efficient. Eventually they will push strategies out of the format, just like in Vintage.

    My understanding of format health has been that it's the balance of the power of the best cards (including answers, removal etc, but that's a separate discussion) that influence the format health, so in my previous post I argue that Oko is overpowered relative to other cards that fair decks use, it's not an inherent property of the age of the format or card or the amount of cards available in the format but rather it is a problem because of the power of Oko relative to other legal cards and banning this single card will level out the playing field again.
    New or old, Oko is a one-card combo of efficient answer + threat to most of the format. It is obviously pushing powerful cards out of the format, look at Jace the Mind Sculptor. I don't think it will be long before Jace is essentially unplayable, and it sees very little play now. Liliana of the Veil was once incredibly good, now is seen in only fringe decks like the occasional Pox or Jund. The format is narrowing. I'm not arguing about format health, that is much too subjective to ever nail down (just look at this thread's history.)

    Another observation contradicting this view of aging formats becoming degenerate, Legacy was by several people considered to be perhaps more healthy than ever before just before War of the Spark was released, at least I read several people state this at the time. A format can clearly improve.
    Again, not arguing about degeneracy, that was introduced by you. I can see the argument about pre-Spark Legacy, it even makes sense, but it's a different point.

    Another observation is that it was actually a rules change about legendary permanents that made Depths replace The Rock, so it was actually the rules change that increased the power level of an old card rather than a new printing. So, I guess that makes it an exception.
    It is true that a rules change made Depths better than Rock, but other factors in the format helped push the Rock out as well (and Jund.) Maybe I'm making a false comparison there, it just seems so clear to me that if you want to play BGx that the combo deck of Dark Depths is better than the mid-range Rock or Jund. This could possibly change, but I am skeptical. Rock/Jund were always tier 2 anyways, whereas Depths goes in/out of DTB regularly. I would also argue that cards like Assassin's Trophy and Veil of Summer are newer cards that make Depths even more powerful, whereas it's just a replacement effect in Rock/Jund. Protecting a 20/20 that wins on the spot is more powerful than protecting a Dark Confidant/Tarmogoyf/Liliana of the Veil.

    I could also add that Storm is an example of the format narrowing. There is really only one competitive Storm deck right now, and that's TES, which has been completely re-tooled to use Veil of Summer instead of discard. There used to be ANT, Solidarity, and Doomsday for other storm variations.

    I've really blown a lot of hot air here, but I think my point is clear: Legacy isn't getting more degenerate, it's getting narrower in competitive strategies. I believe it will eventually become like vintage where you're always playing the best cards in the format alongside your combo of choice.
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  19. #22859
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I didn't mention degenerate in my statement, you're introducing that as a definition. I didn't say degenerate, I said 'busted'.
    So, in short, I don't think it's meaningful to treat 'busted' and 'degenerate' as different concepts here, we're talking about the same thing and it's mostly format depending anyway (I suppose one could refer to broken vintage cards as degenerate and broken legacy cards as busted), and using another synonym with a slightly different meaning doesn't change anything, in my view (both concepts are interchangeable for me in the context of this discussion, even if slightly different). Especially since I didn't define it differently, I was just referring to whatever you were talking about. My argument still applies, it's still a question of a card breaking the format by too high power level.. And you even agreed to that, so we seem to be on the same page somehow.

  20. #22860
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    There's no point in banning fetches. They already created a format for that.

    Legacy is the only format to play 4xBrainstorm + fetch into dual. It is perhaps the most defining feature of the format. Overpowered or not, it's what makes Legacy most distinct from other formats and retains the player base. Banning fetches or Brainstorm essentially creates a new format and invalidates the reason WOTC lets Legacy exist.

    There is nothing wrong with having a Brainstorm format, until they do dumb things like make Maverick creatures in blue (Delver, TNN) and the best planeswalkers in blue. Brainstorm decks used to be more balanced before they gave blue all the best tools with little drawback for playing them.

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