View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #22121
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post

    If trying to interact with the opponent (via counters/discard) gets punished too heavily then sure, you can adapt by not interacting. Do you think a meta without interaction is enjoyable? You might like the idea of playing Zoo but the people playing UG Omni or Underworld Breach / TES are going to be even happier.

    I have no problem with Veil from a design point of view (as opposed to something like Gitaxian Probe, which I think is an inherently flawed/problematic card) but if the data shows that the meta is slowing devolving into e.g. Glass Cannon decks vs Prison then I think it's an issue

    I don't really have any problems with Astrolabe or Oko
    I think the issue with Veil is that it is cutting down on discard, which is the traditional form of interaction - at sorcery speed and 1:1 on cards (or 2:1 on Hymn). With Veil it is 1:1 at worst, and often much better. The most aggressive decks in the format have adopted Veil and that isn't healthy for the format.

    Tempo and Blue play many conditional counterspells - Daze, Spell Pierce, The Blasts (Pyro/Hydro/Red/Blue), Spell Snare, Flusterstorm, even Mindbreak Trap - Veil circumvents in a way that discard and 1:1 counterspells do not. Imagine as a Tempo player, you have 2 Daze and 1 Spell Pierce in hand - a Sneak and Show and show player has 5 mana sources and either a) Sneak Attack and Spell Pierce or b) Veil of Summer and Sneak Attack. If they lead with Veil - are you going to throw 3 cards at it so that they tap out and draw a card? Probably not, so both spells will resolve, and as the Tempo player, you probably did the right thing by waiting and not letting them draw the card. Same vs. TES/ANT - their combo cards cost 4/5 mana each, so a lot of the Dazes and Spell Pierces don't become valuable until after those spells are cast. Leading with Veil makes Pierce/Snare/Daze/Flusterstorm/Pyroblast all a lot more worthless and I don't know if it is healthy for Legacy.

    Astrolabe allows 5x color off of basic lands, which is questionable - also makes it impossible to read your opponent's hand or force them to commit to mana colors via wasteland or other mana denial (Rishidan Port, Choke, Blood Moon, etc.) - if your opponent has one mana and Astrolabe open and a card in hand, it could be STP, Veil, Pyroblast, Spell Pierce, it's impossible to tell or to limit mana options through which lands are available, because every color is available.

    Oko is hard to play against if you play mid-range, tempo, and creature-light control. If you play BUG or RUG or Grixis Delver and your opponent resolves an Oko against an empty board, you can draw your best creature and Oko is going to turn it into a 3/3, eventually trade with it, and live to tell the story. Similarly, playing Tempo against Control with Oko, as a Tempo player, you don't want to overcommit creatures into a sweeper like Terminus or Supreme Verdict, but if Oko resolves vs. 1 creature on board, Oko will win.

    Astrolabe is also great Oko fodder, it plays its role in the early game, and then is a 3/3 without summoning sickness once enough land get on board.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus View Post
    Controversial opinion, but I think green was kind of underpowered for a while there. That said, I think Once Upon a Time fills that hole nicely. I'm not sure there really needs to be something else, and especially not like Veil.
    I take it you are being sarcastic :) The main decks I see once upon a time in are GW Eldrazi and BG Dark Depths, which aren't traditional green in my opinion. Elves doesn't appear to run Once Upon a Time. I like the card, it seems more suited to land-based decks.

    What do you think about a creature for Legacy - Evolved Predator - G 3/4 - If you do not control a non-basic land, sacrifice Evolved Predator. And something like:
    Legacy Protector - G1 2/3 Reach - Flash - Protection from Blue - When Legacy Protector enters the battlefield, you may counter target triggered or activated ability.
    Last edited by Water_Wizard; 01-27-2020 at 07:36 PM.
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  2. #22122
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Wizard View Post
    What do you think about a creature for Legacy - Evolved Predator - G 3/4 - If you do not control a non-basic land, sacrifice Evolved Predator. And something like:
    Legacy Protector - G1 2/3 Reach - Flash - Protection from Blue - When Legacy Protector enters the battlefield, you may counter target triggered or activated ability.
    At a minimum if you want to push green and not blue splashing for green you need to be looking at GG as a cost at least. Otherwise, if you print a powerful green card it will just go into regular delver/xerox shells anyway.
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  3. #22123
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    This proposed new format is basically what Wizards did creating Modern. Is Old Growth Dryads any good in Modern?

    They clearly left Legacy alone for those of us who want fast but unpowered combo balanced by FoW (and to sleeve up our 4xBrainstorm 4xPonder 2xSnow-Covered Island). They're never going to cut that stuff, it's the reason Legacy still exists.



    What can fill green's hole? Instead of G for 3/3, how about a 3-mana permanent that makes 3/3s. That fits greens themes beatdown and ramp. Maybe it could gain 3 life too.
    Unless that card was aggressively costed or very color dependent it would just be absorbed by Xerox decks. At the end of the day the best thing to do in legacy will be to play 4x Brainstorm, 4x Ponder, 4x Force of Will and then fill in from there.

    Edit: Ninja'd
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  4. #22124
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Unless that card was aggressively costed or very color dependent it would just be absorbed by Xerox decks. At the end of the day the best thing to do in legacy will be to play 4x Brainstorm, 4x Ponder, 4x Force of Will and then fill in from there.

    Edit: Ninja'd
    Is 1UG not aggressively costed or color dependent enough? If Wizards gave this hypothetical new best 3/3 engine as a card that also pitches to FoW, is that a problem?

  5. #22125
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Is 1UG not aggressively costed or color dependent enough? If Wizards gave this hypothetical new best 3/3 engine as a card that also pitches to FoW, is that a problem?
    Depends on what you mean by "Make green good".

    If you mean you want the top deck to be Temur instead of Grixis, Simic instead of Izzet, then sure make powerful cards that are G, 1G, (Anycolor)G, or 1UG, etc . . .

    If you mean you want the top deck to "Have green but not have blue" you need to print a busted ass card with at least GG in the mana cost OR some new crazy elf OR some hilariously broken green enchantment for Enchantress.
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  6. #22126
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Excellent cards will _always_ get co-opted into blue shells, since blue can do what other colors can't (or at least can't do anywhere as good), and what amounts to the best mechanics in this game: Reactively neutralize stuff on the stack, and draw cards. Since the best cards in other categories (aggressiveness - Delver; evasiveness - True-Name Nemsis; etc.) have also been printed in U over the last years, U is less dependent on "support" colors, except for removal. That doesn't mean U shells won't adapt if there were a new threat to be printed that simply outclassed pretty much everything else, even with GG in its mana cost (remember Ug Survival?).

    You'd have to specifically make it nigh-impossible for U to do that, if you don't want anyone do it successfully. "You can't cast ~ if you control an Island." type of stuff.

  7. #22127
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by colo View Post
    Excellent cards will _always_ get co-opted into blue shells, since blue can do what other colors can't (or at least can't do anywhere as good), and what amounts to the best mechanics in this game: Reactively neutralize stuff on the stack, and draw cards. Since the best cards in other categories (aggressiveness - Delver; evasiveness - True-Name Nemsis; etc.) have also been printed in U over the last years, U is less dependent on "support" colors, except for removal. That doesn't mean U shells won't adapt if there were a new threat to be printed that simply outclassed pretty much everything else, even with GG in its mana cost (remember Ug Survival?).

    You'd have to specifically make it nigh-impossible for U to do that, if you don't want anyone do it successfully. "You can't cast ~ if you control an Island." type of stuff.
    I don't think you need to make it nigh-impossible for U to run it, just make it incompatible with their general strategy, e.g. Once Upon A Time is a great example for that. Sadly, WotC continues the trend of making hate cards one-sided instead of affecting both players. Constraints breed creativity, but WotC is too much on the "feel-good"-train which results in their regular fuck-ups and bans lately.

    An example for a card that wouldn't slot well into blue decks: (and no, this shouldn't be a shitty card creation thread or power level discussion, just an example to illustrate):

    The Cruader
    Legendary Creature - Human Knight
    First Strike
    Non-white spells cost more to play.
    Other white creatures you control get +1/+1.
    2/2

    The taxing makes it very unattractive to run too many non-white spells in the same way Thalia isn't run by blue decks. The Crusade effect encourages you to run quite a few white creatures to capitalize fully on it.

    Thing is, we won't get blatant anti-blue cards anytime soon. But there are other ways to make powerful cards unattractive for blue.

  8. #22128

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Wizard View Post
    What do you think about a creature for Legacy - Evolved Predator - G 3/4 - If you do not control a non-basic land, sacrifice Evolved Predator. And something like:
    Legacy Protector - G1 2/3 Reach - Flash - Protection from Blue - When Legacy Protector enters the battlefield, you may counter target triggered or activated ability.
    Skylasher comes very close. If nothing else it surprise kills a delver, flipped or otherwise.
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  9. #22129

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    I don't think you need to make it nigh-impossible for U to run it, just make it incompatible with their general strategy, e.g. Once Upon A Time is a great example for that. Sadly, WotC continues the trend of making hate cards one-sided instead of affecting both players. Constraints breed creativity, but WotC is too much on the "feel-good"-train which results in their regular fuck-ups and bans lately.

    An example for a card that wouldn't slot well into blue decks: (and no, this shouldn't be a shitty card creation thread or power level discussion, just an example to illustrate):

    The Cruader
    Legendary Creature - Human Knight
    First Strike
    Non-white spells cost more to play.
    Other white creatures you control get +1/+1.
    2/2

    The taxing makes it very unattractive to run too many non-white spells in the same way Thalia isn't run by blue decks. The Crusade effect encourages you to run quite a few white creatures to capitalize fully on it.

    Thing is, we won't get blatant anti-blue cards anytime soon. But there are other ways to make powerful cards unattractive for blue.
    I'm pretty sure that card is too good to be allowed in DnT.

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  10. #22130
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    The Elfsader
    Legendary Creature - Elf Shaman
    Hexproof
    Green spells cost less to play
    Whenever a player casts a green creature spell, that player draws a card.
    2/2
    Colorshifting it...

  11. #22131
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Colorshifting it...
    lol what, you better errata that to green spells cost less to cast right now
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  12. #22132
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Yeah, it's probably fine to add Glimpse of Nature to a hexproof creature type - elf alongside something that makes one-mana elves free.

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Colorshifting it...
    BUT GUISE MAKES INFET REALLY GOOD! Ban Brainstorm!
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  14. #22134
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    At a minimum if you want to push green and not blue splashing for green you need to be looking at GG as a cost at least. Otherwise, if you print a powerful green card it will just go into regular delver/xerox shells anyway.
    Something like - Lurking Ambusher - GG - 3/2 Flash, Reach

    I think a creature that combined an effect like Bind and a 2/2ish body with flash would be cool - if you add Blue, all the FOW decks will splash it, if you do 1G, they may splash too, so it's got to be GG or GGG (or I guess GG1) would work too. There should be a creature for GGGG that is just awesome. And then one for GGGGG that just rocks, has to be have at least 3 more abilities than Reality Smasher.
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  15. #22135
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Wizard View Post
    Something like - Lurking Ambusher - GG - 3/2 Flash, Reach

    I think a creature that combined an effect like Bind and a 2/2ish body with flash would be cool - if you add Blue, all the FOW decks will splash it, if you do 1G, they may splash too, so it's got to be GG or GGG (or I guess GG1) would work too. There should be a creature for GGGG that is just awesome. And then one for GGGGG that just rocks, has to be have at least 3 more abilities than Reality Smasher.
    They tried printing creatures with GGGGGG and even GGGGGGGG (Primalcrux, Khalni Hydra) but even Devotion to Green decks don't run them. How many more Gs do they need?

    At 5 cmc with multiple abilities... Vorapede, Oversoul of Dusk, and Thornling are magic cards.

  16. #22136
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    They tried printing creatures with GGGGGG and even GGGGGGGG (Primalcrux, Khalni Hydra) but even Devotion to Green decks don't run them. How many more Gs do they need?

    At 5 cmc with multiple abilities... Vorapede, Oversoul of Dusk, and Thornling are magic cards.
    Great points - and every one of the cards listed above dies to STP, so GGGGG is spent on a creature, and it dies with a W instant?

    That's why these cards don't work. The GGGG or larger creature needs hexproof, probably needs haste or a way to gain haste, and needs power 6 or a way to grow.

    As an aside, I think the way to "fix" Astrolabe is to make it activate with Snow Mana (not generic), so there is some constraint around color production.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Wizard View Post
    As an aside, I think the way to "fix" Astrolabe is to make it activate with Snow Mana (not generic), so there is some constraint around color production.
    LOL @ Astrolabe being used to cast a GGGG hexproof haste 6/6 in Miracles.

    Sadly they will probably try it if you don't stop it. I played in a Standard format where you were supposed to curve 1UUU into 2GGGG into RRBBBUU. Control just plays all the best cards if you give them the mana.

    Edit:
    The GGGG or larger creature... probably needs haste or a way to gain haste, and needs power 6 or a way to grow.
    Craterhoof Behemoth

    Unfortunately Gaea's Revenge and even Carnage Tyrant don't see play, not even in Nic Fit. What even happened to Thrun, the Last Troll?

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Wizard View Post
    As an aside, I think the way to "fix" Astrolabe is to make it activate with Snow Mana (not generic), so there is some constraint around color production.
    Overthinking it. The issue is that it turns into a haste, cantripping Rogue Elephant; as such an opponent canít really play walkers into a Astrolabe on board. Get rid of Oko and Astro is canít do double duty as a wincon.

  19. #22139
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    What even happened to Thrun, the Last Troll?
    A few things: Terminus and Council's Judgment made Hexproof not matter, True-Name Nemesis walled it, and Monastery Mentor outclassed Thrun as a threat. Thrun's already gone, but if he wasn't, Oko would push him out. The last time I played Bant, it was a couple years ago, and I tried two Thruns in the board. They ended up being too slow and GG was too steep of a color requirement for a three-color deck in a Back to Basics era.

  20. #22140
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    LOL @ Astrolabe being used to cast a GGGG hexproof haste 6/6 in Miracles.

    Sadly they will probably try it if you don't stop it. I played in a Standard format where you were supposed to curve 1UUU into 2GGGG into RRBBBUU. Control just plays all the best cards if you give them the mana.

    Edit:

    Craterhoof Behemoth

    Unfortunately Gaea's Revenge and even Carnage Tyrant don't see play, not even in Nic Fit. What even happened to Thrun, the Last Troll?
    As an aside, means it is a different issue. Astrolabe should be banned (as is), I'm not talking about it casting large green creatures. - What "happened" to Thrun was that it can't beat Tarmogoyf, Gurmag Angler, Reality Smasher, Delver of Secrets, and True-Name Nemesis, so when spend 4 when you can spend less for better? That's why I'm saying, the green creature needs haste and power 6 so that it is one of the biggest threats in Legacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Overthinking it. The issue is that it turns into a haste, cantripping Rogue Elephant; as such an opponent canít really play walkers into a Astrolabe on board. Get rid of Oko and Astro is canít do double duty as a wincon.
    I think even if Oko is gone, you will still find 4 and 5 color control decks utilizing Astro to take advantage of 1 cc instants (STP, Pyroblast, Veil, etc.) - I think the way to fix Astro is to require snow mana in - obviously, this isn't going to happen, they don't issue erratas anymore, so I would say ban Astro in Legacy. If control players want to run 3, 4, and 5 colors, they need to run dual lands and face threats like Wasteland, Blood Moon, Back to Basics, and Choke. Astro literally lets you run basic land and have better color fixing than the decks that run non-basics. Astro is a nice idea, but over-powered.
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