View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21301
    It's not easy being green

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    Survival of the Fittest is fair right now. If they unbanned it I don't think it would do anything except maybe make another cool Tier 2 deck.

    "Utility?"

    The reason he wrote it like he did is for the Reach, so that your Visionary can block Marit Lage and Delvers while you bounce it to get card advantage.
    The silly part is that Baleful Strix is still more loaded than that. >_>


    As far as the fixed DRSes, I think 1 damage per activation is too little. Simply making DRS cost G would do the card a lot of good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  2. #21302
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I've said it before in DRS discussions before, if it was just limited to your graveyard à la Grim Lavamancer it'd be good but safe. Gone would be the two-pronged offense of eating your opponent's Griselbrand or Lingering Souls and getting value; and you'd be resource limited much faster, especially on mana.

    Or print Grim Lavamancer saying two cards from any graveyard. I'd be happy with that too.
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  3. #21303
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    A busted green creature:

    Mr. Fantastic Elf - GG
    Creature - Elf Mutant
    Reach
    When Mr. Fantastic enters the battlefield, draw a card
    1/1
    Make it a 2/1 so it can actually trade with a Delver. Otherwise this is really shitty strix
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    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
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  4. #21304
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    The silly part is that Baleful Strix is still more loaded than that. >_>


    As far as the fixed DRSes, I think 1 damage per activation is too little. Simply making DRS cost G would do the card a lot of good.
    Sorry for double post, but I think the utility of exiling spells is fine for only 1 damage. 2 damage meant that 2 Deathrite was a very real clock. I don't think I want everyone to have basically upgraded lavamancer available.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  5. #21305

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    My only issue with D&T is that its a creature based deck and their creatures are so much more useful than anything green really has to offer. Green is the color that should be creature based, although I realize that D&T creatures have that little bit of flair that makes them white, it is still odd to me that green doesn't really have a mono green beats that could come anywhere near D&T.

    Personally, I hate playing against it because as a dark depths player it is easily my worst match-up. However, I am happy that it is in the format to keep decks in check.



    Also, if survival of the fittest's mana cost was GGG instead of 1G, would it be fair? That would decrease its ability to be splashed and it would still hold true as a green card. Green just has not been the same without it.
    It's because white gets the best hate creatures while green is the best at big-beater / card-advantage creatures. The latter strategy just doesn't work in Legacy or even Modern really. Way too many broken things are happening for a non-disruptive, fair, creature-based strategy to get any traction.

    The bigger offender in this paradigm is the fact that black gets a 5/5 for 1 mana and blue gets a 3/2 flyer for 1 mana and a stupid card in TNN that should have never been printed. Since blue and black get the best aggro creatures it largely invalidates green in all of the blue decks.

    I wish they would open more design space for WR and GW to be competitive. If they made some pushed cards in those color that could generate some new decks or at the very least different combinations of splash colors for blue decks.

  6. #21306
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Sorry for double post, but I think the utility of exiling spells is fine for only 1 damage. 2 damage meant that 2 Deathrite was a very real clock. I don't think I want everyone to have basically upgraded lavamancer available.
    The basically upgraded Lavamancer is the point. Make him eg. cost G to cast and only make BG if you want to try to make him off-limits for Grixis?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  7. #21307
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    It's because white gets the best hate creatures while green is the best at big-beater / card-advantage creatures. The latter strategy just doesn't work in Legacy or even Modern really. Way too many broken things are happening for a non-disruptive, fair, creature-based strategy to get any traction.

    The bigger offender in this paradigm is the fact that black gets a 5/5 for 1 mana and blue gets a 3/2 flyer for 1 mana and a stupid card in TNN that should have never been printed. Since blue and black get the best aggro creatures it largely invalidates green in all of the blue decks.

    I wish they would open more design space for WR and GW to be competitive. If they made some pushed cards in those color that could generate some new decks or at the very least different combinations of splash colors for blue decks.
    to be fair tho, black doesnt get a 5/5 for 1 mana. Its only 1 mana on like turn 3-5? Thats far less threatening. Whether it cost 1 or 4 tapping out to cast it on turn 3-5 doesnt make much of a difference unless you are holding counterspells.
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  8. #21308

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    to be fair tho, black doesnt get a 5/5 for 1 mana. Its only 1 mana on like turn 3-5? Thats far less threatening. Whether it cost 1 or 4 tapping out to cast it on turn 3-5 doesnt make much of a difference unless you are holding counterspells.
    There's more you can do with your leftover mana than cast counter spells. Huge difference between tapping out for a 5/5 and tapping 1 mana for a 5/5 and following that up with a second play.

  9. #21309

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Ban Chalice of the Void! It's unfair to blue players everywhere!
    - 'Pathy' on MTGO
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  10. #21310
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    Ban Chalice of the Void! It's unfair to Burn and Elves and Dredge and Pox players everywhere!
    Fixed that for ya'.
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  11. #21311

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Fixed that for ya'.
    As someone who has been playing Legacy for nearly 10 years and has never registered a deck without 4 Chalice of the Void in the main deck at any Legacy event, I have to say that burn and dredge actually have a higher win-rate vs. me than the entire conglomerate of blue decks does. Elves might be even, and I don't think I've ever seen Pox more than 2-3 times in the past 10 years.
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  12. #21312
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    As someone who has been playing Legacy for nearly 10 years and has never registered a deck without 4 Chalice of the Void in the main deck at any Legacy event, I have to say that burn and dredge actually have a higher win-rate vs. me than the entire conglomerate of blue decks does. Elves might be even, and I don't think I've ever seen Pox more than 2-3 times in the past 10 years.
    As someone who has been playing Legacy for nearly six years and has never registered a deck with 4 Chalice of the Void in any format ever, I can say that my anecdotal evidence is better than yours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
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  13. #21313
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    The basically upgraded Lavamancer is the point. Make him eg. cost G to cast and only make BG if you want to try to make him off-limits for Grixis?
    Yeah but why do we need an upgraded Lavamancer? If you want graveyard exiling shock, you should have to play Lavamancer
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  14. #21314
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Burn has legs on Chalice decks because the mana base hurts.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  15. #21315
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    This may be a peripheral discussion but still (a beggar can't choose, perhaps a legacy afficionado cannot be too picky). I wanted to add something that I thought might have been mentioned earlier in the discussion, and sure enough it's there in the first post's edit..

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    I think something like this could help green, non-elves decks become more viable:

    Good Times Ranger
    Casting cost: G
    Card type: Creature - Cleric Wizard
    Tap: Exile target land card from a graveyard. Add one mana of any color.
    B, Tap: Exile target instant or sorcery card from a graveyard. Each opponent loses 2 life.
    G, Tap: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. You gain 2 life.
    P/T: 0/1
    Flavor text: I'm back.

    Edit: Matsu's version below is probably more reasonably balanced. But remember, Deathrite was never really a problem before it got played in non-green decks (grixis specifically), I guess green centered decks need some high power level to even only be relevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
    Too stronk i have balanced it more ;)

    Good Times Ranger
    Casting cost: G
    Card type: Creature - Cleric Wizard
    Tap: Exile target land card from a graveyard. Add G.
    B, Tap: Exile target instant or sorcery card from a graveyard. Each opponent loses 1 life.
    G, Tap: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. You gain 2 life.
    P/T: 0/1
    Flavor text: I'm back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    As far as the fixed DRSes, I think 1 damage per activation is too little. Simply making DRS cost G would do the card a lot of good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Sorry for double post, but I think the utility of exiling spells is fine for only 1 damage. 2 damage meant that 2 Deathrite was a very real clock. I don't think I want everyone to have basically upgraded lavamancer available.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    The basically upgraded Lavamancer is the point. Make him eg. cost G to cast and only make BG if you want to try to make him off-limits for Grixis?
    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Yeah but why do we need an upgraded Lavamancer? If you want graveyard exiling shock, you should have to play Lavamancer
    I'll just repeat that as long as Deathrite was not played in Grixis Delver or Grixis Control, most people (not all) didn't have a problem with it. Its powerlevel was very reasonable in Maverick, The Rock, Deadguy Ale, MOST, and even BUG Delver variants [edit: and Elves too, this deck was never demolishing the format]. That last one is rather surprising actually, BUG Delver was not too good but Grixis Delver was. I guess this may have something to do with the interaction between Gitaxian Probe and Young Pyromancer (Cabal Therapy lost favor, iirc, maybe Gurmag should be added here too), and this strong synergy of the deck has been addressed now, too. So, even if Deathrite deals two damage to the opponent's face, we already have very clear evidence on this not being far too strong for Legacy, I'd say. I agree that weakening it this way, letting it deal 1 damage only, would still leave it a very useful creature and thus should be done.

    Edit: the point I'm making here is that the effects of Deathrite were fine, as shown by the empirical evidence of how the format turned out which could be easily recognized from the DtB section. It was only the too flexible casting cost, allowing play in Grixis decks, that made it a problem. Probably it would benefit from being a bit weaker, like dealing less damage to the opponent, but even in its super strong form it didn't make most green decks t1. So you could even argue that fair green decks needed this power level to stand a chance, this is the type of creature green needs to be relevant next to the blue shell. It was apparently still too weak to make the difference.

    When it comes to Grim Lavamancer, its power lies more in board control than dealing 2 damage to the opponent, and this aspect Deathrite lacks, so I think comparing with Lavamancer is to some extent relevant but not very relevant.

  16. #21316
    It's not easy being green

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I mean, the tension in Delver was that classically, green offered you beats, red speed and black better removal and if you played slower, GB had raw CA and big beats. You had to choose two, which is why RUG and BUG had such distinct character. Green was the weakest color in the pile, though, sans DRS' improved ability to play long and big. The dream was always to get both red speed and good black removal. Now with Angler, Pyromancer and TNN, you don't have to choose. Playing Green is shooting yourself in the foot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  17. #21317
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    Green was the weakest color in the pile, though, sans DRS' improved ability to play long and big. The dream was always to get both red speed and good black removal. Now with Angler, Pyromancer and TNN, you don't have to choose. Playing Green is shooting yourself in the foot.
    This was certainly true when DRS was legal (Grixis being best Delver deck), but at this point Grixis Delver is just a deck with 4x Delver which is more or less small Grixis “control“ featuring Wasteland, rather than a real Delver deck. Playing Wasteland and Daze in a deck that wants the game to go long (playing around 3x TNN and being unable to reliably open with a threat) is inherently suspect.

    Even though small Grixis has enough generically good cards to float around tier 1.5-ish, the comment about playing green in Delver should be revisited. DRS is gone and they just printed Cindervines into an actual Delver deck (8x turn 1 threats, RUG Delver). RUG is still less winning than small Grixis (because it‘s gone longer without a creature upgrade), but they had a new avenue opened in terms of ways to play a true Delver strategy. Green now represents a proactive [count to 20] tool which also counts as something like Pernicious Deed for anything [actual] Delver cared about. If they print a creature to replace Goose or Goyf (only a matter of time since green gets the best rates), there‘s going to be some meaningful innovation possible. As long as DRS is banned, green is going to remain the color of most latent potential rather than liability.

  18. #21318

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    If they ever banned Terminus, they'd have to ban Vial. It's not really acceptable to have DnT making wraths cost 6 [Port/Thalia] +/- Wastelands. Otherwise you'd need an unconditional 3 mana sorc speed wrath, or a 4 mana unconditional instant speed one. As always, ban CB and unban SDT - combo can make miracles stop playing so many white cards, aggro has comprehensively failed to make miracles stop playing Counterbalance.
    Ban Vial lol. I can't tell if you're serious or not.

  19. #21319
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    FLAME PLEASE!
    Ah, the smell of napalm in the morning!

    The best decks in legacy might not be playing-brainstorm

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Huang
    Brainstorm decks make up 57.6% of the winner’s metagame, which is by far the lowest I have ever seen it since I started tracking metagame results in 2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Huang
    Legacy is more balanced than it has ever been, and it’s because the non-Brainstorm decks have access to more broken mana plays than the Brainstorm decks (...)
    All in all, Legacy is in the most diverse place it has been since the printing of Delver of Secrets, and possibly ever. I expect we will look back on this time as an exciting era of Legacy where you can really play anything

  20. #21320

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    FLAME PLEASE!
    Ah, the smell of napalm in the morning!

    The best decks in legacy might not be playing-brainstorm
    Chalice of the void is in 18% of decks per mtgtop8.com the prior two months. Curious if it has ever been over 25?
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

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