All B/R update speculation.

[Lemnear]

I should've elaborated. The fact that it won't ever happen is more what I mean

Pardon me then. Yeah, we waste our time with either

[apple713]

I would love to see the stupid 1 land splash eliminated, but that's a problem in every format where fetches are legal. It's just a side effect of what the lands do.

In the end, even if all you say were accurate I still think that removing fetches would be a negative for the format because of the effect it would have on deck prices. Like it or not, fetches are responsible for knocking off $1000 or more from the cost of most decks in the format. Imagine what would happen if every 3 color deck suddenly needed 12 abu dual lands in addition to some other expensive mana fixing like Mox Diamonds. If it didn't outright kill the format it would severely hinder getting anyone new into the format, if for no other reason than requiring 16 RL cards in every single deck would place a large physical limitation on how many people could play the game.

the obvious result that would occur is that people wouldnt play 3 color decks because you would sacrifice too much consistency. Even with shock lands its still not a great option.

[Finn]

the obvious result that would occur is that people wouldnt play 3 color decks because you would sacrifice too much consistency. Even with shock lands its still not a great option.

And just so we are clear. That is a good result. More colors comes at a price.

[Lord Seth]

the obvious result that would occur is that people wouldnt play 3 color decks because you would sacrifice too much consistency. Even with shock lands its still not a great option.

Innistrad-RTR Standard needed only the shocklands and checklands together to allow for extremely consistent 3-mana manbases.

To be fair, Legacy has substantially better anti-nonbasic land cards than that Standard format had (Burning Earth was actually pretty decent, but only came in towards the end of the format). Still, lack of fetchlands doesn't mean a lack of consistency for 3-color decks.

[apple713]

And just so we are clear. That is a good result. More colors comes at a price.

Agreed. More colors should come at a considerable price and fetch lands make that price too cheap.

Innistrad-RTR Standard needed only the shocklands and checklands together to allow for extremely consistent 3-mana manbases.

To be fair, Legacy has substantially better anti-nonbasic land cards than that Standard format had (Burning Earth was actually pretty decent, but only came in towards the end of the format). Still, lack of fetchlands doesn't mean a lack of consistency for 3-color decks.

You forgot one of the most important considerations. Legacy games are significantly faster than standard games. Generally this means that you need access to all the colors in the first 1-2 turns to be able to consistently keep hands. In standard you have alot more leeway in keeping hands because you don't have to worry about the game ending on turn 3.

If you look back on the championship decks from before onslaught fetches were printed in 2002, the existence of 4 and 5 color decks was non-existent. There was one exception. The list is below for reference for you to see how janky the manabase had to be to effectively run 5 colors. Even then there were so few cards that had white or red that it was effectively a 3 color deck. There were only 5 cards including the sideboard that were white or red. This was a standard at the time. If you want to compare it to a time with shock lands, look at the link here CHAMPS 2006 METAGAME BREAKDOWN. Even then only 3 color decks existed and there were considerable draw backs. Now days you can just play 5 colors and dont have to think twice about the manabase. Handful of fetches, handful of duals, few basics and done... No drawbacks.

Cali Nightmare

Creatures (24)
4*Birds of Paradise
1*Cloudchaser Eagle
1*Man-o'-War
2*Nekrataal
1*Orcish Settlers
2*Spike Feeder
1*Spike Weaver
1*Spirit of the Night
1*Thrull Surgeon
1*Tradewind Rider
2*Uktabi Orangutan
1*Verdant Force
4*Wall of Blossoms
2*Wall of Roots

Sorceries (4)
2*Firestorm
2*Lobotomy

Enchantments (8)
4*Recurring Nightmare
4*Survival of the Fittest

Artifacts (2)
2*Scroll Rack

Lands (22)
3*City of Brass
8*Forest
1*Gemstone Mine
2*Karplusan Forest
2*Reflecting Pool
1*Swamp
2*Underground River
2*Undiscovered Paradise
1*Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard (15)
4*Boil
2*Dread of Night
3*Emerald Charm
1*Hall of Gemstone
2*Phyrexian Furnace
2*Pyroblast
1*Staunch Defenders

[Brael]

the obvious result that would occur is that people wouldnt play 3 color decks because you would sacrifice too much consistency. Even with shock lands its still not a great option.

So the question is, in a format where most decks need to play blue as one color (and this would still be the case without fetches), does two colors create more diversity than three colors presents? I think the answer to that is no.

[Brael]

Innistrad-RTR Standard needed only the shocklands and checklands together to allow for extremely consistent 3-mana manbases.

To be fair, Legacy has substantially better anti-nonbasic land cards than that Standard format had (Burning Earth was actually pretty decent, but only came in towards the end of the format). Still, lack of fetchlands doesn't mean a lack of consistency for 3-color decks.

The biggest difference is that functional standard decks require more along the lines of 24 lands, which allowed 16 of each color, while the curves in legacy are such that fewer lands need to be played. A 20 land deck that plays 12 duals/8 checks only has around 14/14/12 colored sources. When you consider that wasteland is a thing, that basically means that double mana cost cards, even in your primary color become huge liabilities.

On the surface that might sound great, everyone plays fewer colors. In practice, what it means is that a card like Teferi becomes far more playable than JTMS, or a card like Leovold is easier to cast than True Name Nemesis, or Baleful Strix looks better than Hymn. Which means that what happens is that rather than people being able to play the deep color cards, they consolidate on the much lower number of gold cards in the format, and multicolor goodstuff reigns supreme.

[Lord Seth]

If you look back on the championship decks from before onslaught fetches were printed in 2002, the existence of 4 and 5 color decks was non-existent. There was one exception. The list is below for reference for you to see how janky the manabase had to be to effectively run 5 colors. Even then there were so few cards that had white or red that it was effectively a 3 color deck. There were only 5 cards including the sideboard that were white or red. This was a standard at the time. If you want to compare it to a time with shock lands, look at the link here CHAMPS 2006 METAGAME BREAKDOWN. Even then only 3 color decks existed and there were considerable draw backs.

I'm not sure how relevant any of this is? You're appealing to Standard data. What relevance does that have for Legacy? Granted, this is in response to my remark about Innistrad-RTR Standard, but those decks generally topped out at 3 colors (not going into 4 or 5). And the issue of fetchlands is rather irrelevant in Standard unless they're combined with fetchable dual lands (as was the case, quite unfortunately, in Khans-Battle Standard). Without fetchable duals, the fetchlands are about on par with the painlands.

Though for the record, something to remember about Standard in 2002 and earlier (and in fact, even for a while afterwards) was that Wizards of the Coast was reluctant to print full sets of dual lands, preferring to only keep it in the allied colors, Invasion block's enemy painlands excepted. This made three colors trickier because you lacked dual lands for at least one (or possibly two) of the color combinations in them (example: Suppose you wanted a UWB deck. You'd have access to UW and UB dual lands typically, but not WB. Similarly, UWR would only have UW, not UR or WR). It was later on that they started making sure enemy colors had access to the same quality of mana fixing as the allied colors, which allowed for three color decks to emerge more frequently in Standard.

Now days you can just play 5 colors and dont have to think twice about the manabase. Handful of fetches, handful of duals, few basics and done... No drawbacks.

How so? What Legacy decks run 5 colors?

[Mr. Safety]

Close enough, I guess. :p

In all honest, starting your deck with 12 ABU duals sounds like a fine way to get blown out by Blood Moon or Back to Basics. I think this design is so easily punished, that no one would consider it worth investing.

Prismatic Omen muthafucka. Or crop rotation. Green is the color fixing option now. Both have real opportunity costs, but that's as it should be.

[Lemnear]

Both have real opportunity costs, but that's as it should be.

Preach!

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

How so? What Legacy decks run 5 colors?

Dredge.
Reanimator.

[apple713]

How so? What Legacy decks run 5 colors?

Thats not the point. The point is that it could be done effortlessly. That also means that it became significantly easier to make 3 color decks. Even if there arn't many 5 color decks, there are several 4 color decks. One of those 4 color decks was a contributing factor to the recent banning decision.

[Lord Seth]

Thats not the point. The point is that it could be done effortlessly.

If it "could" be done so effortlessly on the basis of fetchlands+dual lands, then why isn't it being done? Perhaps the answer is that it can't be done "effortlessly" with the fetchlands and dual lands? Certainly, if it could be, one is left wondering why the Humans deck in Modern was only able to become a real thing after it got enough rainbow lands, because by your assertion the deck could've done its thing solely on the fetchlands and shocklands.

That also means that it became significantly easier to make 3 color decks. Even if there arn't many 5 color decks, there are several 4 color decks. One of those 4 color decks was a contributing factor to the recent banning decision.

What 4-color decks were able to maintain their manabase solely on the basis of fetchlands and dual lands, i.e. without the benefit of Deathrite Shaman or some other mana-fixing creature?

[Megadeus]

If it "could" be done so effortlessly on the basis of fetchlands+dual lands, then why isn't it being done? Perhaps the answer is that it can't be done "effortlessly" with the fetchlands and dual lands? Certainly, if it could be, one is left wondering why the Humans deck in Modern was only able to become a real thing after it got enough rainbow lands, because by your assertion the deck could've done its thing solely on the fetchlands and shocklands.

What 4-color decks were able to maintain their manabase solely on the basis of fetchlands and dual lands, i.e. without the benefit of Deathrite Shaman or some other mana-fixing creature?

4 color loam because of diamonds. But really we haven't had a deck like that I can think of after like the old 4 color counter balance decks that splashed red and green for like Ancient grudge and I believe like Fire spout? I think they also maybe played Goyf. That's like when I first started playing magic in general though so I may be mistaken

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

If it "could" be done so effortlessly on the basis of fetchlands+dual lands, then why isn't it being done? Perhaps the answer is that it can't be done "effortlessly" with the fetchlands and dual lands? Certainly, if it could be, one is left wondering why the Humans deck in Modern was only able to become a real thing after it got enough rainbow lands, because by your assertion the deck could've done its thing solely on the fetchlands and shocklands.

Except hatebears was always a thing and you're forgetting the other card printed at the same time that put them over the top on "humans matter" which was kite sale freebooter.

[phg22]

Hatebears, a well known 5 color deck

[MorphBerlin]

Thats not the point. The point is that it could be done effortlessly. That also means that it became significantly easier to make 3 color decks. Even if there arn't many 5 color decks, there are several 4 color decks. One of those 4 color decks was a contributing factor to the recent banning decision.

Name the plentheora of 4-Color decks, that are able to run on solely Duals+Fetches (No Dorks, Artifacts etc), especially in the face of Wasteland.

It isn't even close to "effortlessly" for 4c let alone 5c.

[kombatkiwi]

Thats not the point. The point is that it could be done effortlessly. That also means that it became significantly easier to make 3 color decks. Even if there arn't many 5 color decks, there are several 4 color decks. One of those 4 color decks was a contributing factor to the recent banning decision.

And now a critical fixing tool that provided such access to colors was banned, so is it really necessary that on week 1 of the format we have to go nuts and resume the campaign for banning fetches?

There are way too many posts in the last 1-2 pages saying that splashing should be hard (whatever that means). None of these posts provide any justification, as though everybody should just take it for granted that multicolor decks are some kind of moral atrocity. If you aren't clear on what kind of games/decks you want and why then you deserve to be ignored

On the surface that might sound great, everyone plays fewer colors. In practice, what it means is that a card like Teferi becomes far more playable than JTMS, or a card like Leovold is easier to cast than True Name Nemesis, or Baleful Strix looks better than Hymn. Which means that what happens is that rather than people being able to play the deep color cards, they consolidate on the much lower number of gold cards in the format, and multicolor goodstuff reigns supreme.

This is just wrong I'm pretty sure
I agree with the general principle (that against decks with Wasteland you want to fetch basics so in a 2-color UB deck you want Island-Swamp. Therefore it might be easier to cast a spell that costs UB than one that costs UU or BB)
I just don't think it's a serious consideration for any of the examples you gave. I'm pretty sure that in every Jace deck (or at least any Jace deck that would also consider playing Teferi) getting to 4 mana without having 2 blue sources is literally impossible. (Hymn vs Strix maybe, but I think the control decks preferred to max out on Strix because it's a stronger card)

[apple713]

If it "could" be done so effortlessly on the basis of fetchlands+dual lands, then why isn't it being done? Perhaps the answer is that it can't be done "effortlessly" with the fetchlands and dual lands? Certainly, if it could be, one is left wondering why the Humans deck in Modern was only able to become a real thing after it got enough rainbow lands, because by your assertion the deck could've done its thing solely on the fetchlands and shocklands.

What 4-color decks were able to maintain their manabase solely on the basis of fetchlands and dual lands, i.e. without the benefit of Deathrite Shaman or some other mana-fixing creature?

It is not being done because all 5 colors rarely contribute to a shared goal. Each color added has diminishing returns. For example, What are you going to add to your deck in the 5the color that you dont already have access to in the other 4 colors?

How about you build a deck with 5 colors under the assumption that you will always have access to the right colors of mana. Then ill build a mana base for you with duals and fetchlands.

Also, i think aluren is 4 colors and there used to be a 5 color zoo deck.

[MorphBerlin]

How about you build a deck with 5 colors under the assumption that you will always have access to the right colors of mana. Then ill build a mana base for you with duals and fetchlands.

// 40 Hauptdeck
// 2 Artifact
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

// 11 Creature
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Tombstalker

// 15 Instant
4 Brainstorm
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
1 Kolaghan's Command

// 4 Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

// 8 Sorcery
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Council's Judgment
4 Ponder