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Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
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Innistrad-RTR Standard needed only the shocklands and checklands together to allow for extremely consistent 3-mana manbases.
To be fair, Legacy has substantially better anti-nonbasic land cards than that Standard format had (Burning Earth was actually pretty decent, but only came in towards the end of the format). Still, lack of fetchlands doesn't mean a lack of consistency for 3-color decks.
Agreed. More colors should come at a considerable price and fetch lands make that price too cheap.
You forgot one of the most important considerations. Legacy games are significantly faster than standard games. Generally this means that you need access to all the colors in the first 1-2 turns to be able to consistently keep hands. In standard you have alot more leeway in keeping hands because you don't have to worry about the game ending on turn 3.
If you look back on the championship decks from before onslaught fetches were printed in 2002, the existence of 4 and 5 color decks was non-existent. There was one exception. The list is below for reference for you to see how janky the manabase had to be to effectively run 5 colors. Even then there were so few cards that had white or red that it was effectively a 3 color deck. There were only 5 cards including the sideboard that were white or red. This was a standard at the time. If you want to compare it to a time with shock lands, look at the link here CHAMPS 2006 METAGAME BREAKDOWN. Even then only 3 color decks existed and there were considerable draw backs. Now days you can just play 5 colors and dont have to think twice about the manabase. Handful of fetches, handful of duals, few basics and done... No drawbacks.
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Creatures (24)
4*Birds of Paradise
1*Cloudchaser Eagle
1*Man-o'-War
2*Nekrataal
1*Orcish Settlers
2*Spike Feeder
1*Spike Weaver
1*Spirit of the Night
1*Thrull Surgeon
1*Tradewind Rider
2*Uktabi Orangutan
1*Verdant Force
4*Wall of Blossoms
2*Wall of Roots
Sorceries (4)
2*Firestorm
2*Lobotomy
Enchantments (8)
4*Recurring Nightmare
4*Survival of the Fittest
Artifacts (2)
2*Scroll Rack
Lands (22)
3*City of Brass
8*Forest
1*Gemstone Mine
2*Karplusan Forest
2*Reflecting Pool
1*Swamp
2*Underground River
2*Undiscovered Paradise
1*Volrath's Stronghold
Sideboard (15)
4*Boil
2*Dread of Night
3*Emerald Charm
1*Hall of Gemstone
2*Phyrexian Furnace
2*Pyroblast
1*Staunch Defenders
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The biggest difference is that functional standard decks require more along the lines of 24 lands, which allowed 16 of each color, while the curves in legacy are such that fewer lands need to be played. A 20 land deck that plays 12 duals/8 checks only has around 14/14/12 colored sources. When you consider that wasteland is a thing, that basically means that double mana cost cards, even in your primary color become huge liabilities.
On the surface that might sound great, everyone plays fewer colors. In practice, what it means is that a card like Teferi becomes far more playable than JTMS, or a card like Leovold is easier to cast than True Name Nemesis, or Baleful Strix looks better than Hymn. Which means that what happens is that rather than people being able to play the deep color cards, they consolidate on the much lower number of gold cards in the format, and multicolor goodstuff reigns supreme.
I'm not sure how relevant any of this is? You're appealing to Standard data. What relevance does that have for Legacy? Granted, this is in response to my remark about Innistrad-RTR Standard, but those decks generally topped out at 3 colors (not going into 4 or 5). And the issue of fetchlands is rather irrelevant in Standard unless they're combined with fetchable dual lands (as was the case, quite unfortunately, in Khans-Battle Standard). Without fetchable duals, the fetchlands are about on par with the painlands.
Though for the record, something to remember about Standard in 2002 and earlier (and in fact, even for a while afterwards) was that Wizards of the Coast was reluctant to print full sets of dual lands, preferring to only keep it in the allied colors, Invasion block's enemy painlands excepted. This made three colors trickier because you lacked dual lands for at least one (or possibly two) of the color combinations in them (example: Suppose you wanted a UWB deck. You'd have access to UW and UB dual lands typically, but not WB. Similarly, UWR would only have UW, not UR or WR). It was later on that they started making sure enemy colors had access to the same quality of mana fixing as the allied colors, which allowed for three color decks to emerge more frequently in Standard.
How so? What Legacy decks run 5 colors?Now days you can just play 5 colors and dont have to think twice about the manabase. Handful of fetches, handful of duals, few basics and done... No drawbacks.
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Thats not the point. The point is that it could be done effortlessly. That also means that it became significantly easier to make 3 color decks. Even if there arn't many 5 color decks, there are several 4 color decks. One of those 4 color decks was a contributing factor to the recent banning decision.
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If it "could" be done so effortlessly on the basis of fetchlands+dual lands, then why isn't it being done? Perhaps the answer is that it can't be done "effortlessly" with the fetchlands and dual lands? Certainly, if it could be, one is left wondering why the Humans deck in Modern was only able to become a real thing after it got enough rainbow lands, because by your assertion the deck could've done its thing solely on the fetchlands and shocklands.
What 4-color decks were able to maintain their manabase solely on the basis of fetchlands and dual lands, i.e. without the benefit of Deathrite Shaman or some other mana-fixing creature?That also means that it became significantly easier to make 3 color decks. Even if there arn't many 5 color decks, there are several 4 color decks. One of those 4 color decks was a contributing factor to the recent banning decision.
4 color loam because of diamonds. But really we haven't had a deck like that I can think of after like the old 4 color counter balance decks that splashed red and green for like Ancient grudge and I believe like Fire spout? I think they also maybe played Goyf. That's like when I first started playing magic in general though so I may be mistaken
Hatebears, a well known 5 color deck
And now a critical fixing tool that provided such access to colors was banned, so is it really necessary that on week 1 of the format we have to go nuts and resume the campaign for banning fetches?
There are way too many posts in the last 1-2 pages saying that splashing should be hard (whatever that means). None of these posts provide any justification, as though everybody should just take it for granted that multicolor decks are some kind of moral atrocity. If you aren't clear on what kind of games/decks you want and why then you deserve to be ignored
This is just wrong I'm pretty sureOn the surface that might sound great, everyone plays fewer colors. In practice, what it means is that a card like Teferi becomes far more playable than JTMS, or a card like Leovold is easier to cast than True Name Nemesis, or Baleful Strix looks better than Hymn. Which means that what happens is that rather than people being able to play the deep color cards, they consolidate on the much lower number of gold cards in the format, and multicolor goodstuff reigns supreme.
I agree with the general principle (that against decks with Wasteland you want to fetch basics so in a 2-color UB deck you want Island-Swamp. Therefore it might be easier to cast a spell that costs UB than one that costs UU or BB)
I just don't think it's a serious consideration for any of the examples you gave. I'm pretty sure that in every Jace deck (or at least any Jace deck that would also consider playing Teferi) getting to 4 mana without having 2 blue sources is literally impossible. (Hymn vs Strix maybe, but I think the control decks preferred to max out on Strix because it's a stronger card)
It is not being done because all 5 colors rarely contribute to a shared goal. Each color added has diminishing returns. For example, What are you going to add to your deck in the 5the color that you dont already have access to in the other 4 colors?
How about you build a deck with 5 colors under the assumption that you will always have access to the right colors of mana. Then ill build a mana base for you with duals and fetchlands.
Also, i think aluren is 4 colors and there used to be a 5 color zoo deck.
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why cards are so expensive...hoarders
// 40 Hauptdeck
// 2 Artifact
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
// 11 Creature
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Tombstalker
// 15 Instant
4 Brainstorm
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
1 Kolaghan's Command
// 4 Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
// 8 Sorcery
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Council's Judgment
4 Ponder
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