View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21861
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rascalyote View Post
    I used to want top back but now do we really want Top with cards like Citadel // Mystic Forge etc.
    Don’t think anyone is really using Citadel in legacy. While a deck like Bomberman uses Mentor, they only compete in the format b/c of Chalice x=1. Top isn’t ever coming back unless Counterbalance is banned.

  2. #21862

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Announcement today, any guesses? I predict no changes across all formats with a paragraph or two about Oko being on the watchlist.
    Ban Wrenn and brainstorm

  3. #21863
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    W6 banned. They did it.

    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...nouncement?tij

    Edit: now we can play Maverick again and DnT can be a good deck. Mother's playability increases by factor 10. [edit: meant as an example, Thalia's increased playability is much more important]
    Last edited by pettdan; 11-19-2019 at 05:38 AM.

  4. #21864
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Looks like BUG is back on the menu boys!
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  5. #21865
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Ban Wrenn and brainstorm
    You were half correct. In many ways W6 was on the same power level as Deathrite Shaman. I am not sad to see it go.

    Called shots for Brainstorm to be banned are fruitless until Aaron Forsythe isn't part of management at WOTC anymore. He has made it clear that legacy is the Brainstorm x4 format (paraphrasing.)
    Brainstorm Realist

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  6. #21866
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Called shots for Brainstorm to be banned are fruitless until Aaron Forsythe isn't part of management at WOTC anymore. He has made it clear that legacy is the Brainstorm x4 format (paraphrasing.)
    Well, here's to hoping they unlock immortality then,

    But seriously, banning Brainstorm in Legacy would be a tragedy and likely would signal a pretty gross stance on what is, or is not, actual bannable (vs. what is ban-worthy or not).
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  7. #21867

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Well, here's to hoping they unlock immortality then,

    But seriously, banning Brainstorm in Legacy would be a tragedy and likely would signal a pretty gross stance on what is, or is not, actual bannable (vs. what is ban-worthy or not).
    Agree, brainstorm is one of the main attractions of the format and it would be much less interesting without it.

  8. #21868
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Well, here's to hoping they unlock immortality then,

    But seriously, banning Brainstorm in Legacy would be a tragedy and likely would signal a pretty gross stance on what is, or is not, actual bannable (vs. what is ban-worthy or not).
    I tend to agree, however by all objective standards Brainstorm is straight-up busted. I absolutely love the card and I feel like its place in Legacy is acceptable. I don't want to open the 'ban brainstorm' can of worms, just saying that 1) it's been stated specifically, and publicly, that it won't be banned and 2) complaining about Brainstorm at this point is utter futility, it isn't going away, so plan accordingly.

    EDIT: I am extraordinarily excited about Dark Confidant being playable in Legacy again, along with my new favorite card Brazen Borrower.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  9. #21869
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Well that was fun while it lasted, sadly we have to go back to Hymn and CB ruining the format. Hooray for ETB value scum Strix and Snapcaster...

  10. #21870
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Fwiw I think with new good non-blue cards like Karn tGC and with the London mulligan offering non-blue strategies decent consistency in the early game Brainstorm doesn't feel as oppressive as it used to. It's a fun card, as long as it doesn't feel like you have to play it to have a decent competitive chance.

  11. #21871
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Well that was fun while it lasted, sadly we have to go back to Hymn and CB ruining the format. Hooray for ETB value scum Strix and Snapcaster...
    I mean no disrespect, but you are in a tiny {EDIT}minority of players that complain about Hymn, Snap, and Strix. Those are all perfectly fine cards in legacy. In a format where you can get Griselbrand t1, Emrakul t2, Chalice or Blood Moon t1, 20/20 marit lage by turn 2, and Tendrils for 20 by turn 2-3, those 3 cards you are calling 'scum' are hardly worth the effort to complain about.

    As a Depths player I would think the absence of Strix would be hilarious. I don't have to play around that AND Edict effects anymore? Hymn is a crucial, and hard to cast, weapon for mid-range decks to fight fast combo and gain card advantage against the other control decks. Snapcaster is hardly a problem. And Counterbalance? I haven't seen that card in ages, even considering Delver decks have been so prevalent (which have a very difficult time against CB.)
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 11-18-2019 at 12:25 PM.
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  12. #21872
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Without talking about the substance of this specific ban, what are the thoughts on this boom-bust cycle we've seen with very impactful printings that end up short lived in the format?
    I've heard lots of talk about Standard and the need to sell packs preventing them from banning their obvious moneymaker, but in Legacy it's a rarity for something to make wakes in the format; but even if it does, it's even rarer to see it leave so quickly.
    I recall older discussions about some of the popular cards to unban, the arguments made that if the cards were truly overpowered, you could just ban them again and all would be well.
    The retort to that was that Legacy is good at being stable, that change happens slowly and you don't want to rock the boat with a sudden power shift and then make it worse by suddenly shifting back.
    And so here we have an opportunity to observe a good facsimile to a potent unban & ban, to see if it really upsets the community that the meta isn't as molasses slow as they'd like to believe it to be.
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  13. #21873
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I mean no disrespect, but you are in a tiny majority of players that complain about Hymn, Snap, and Strix. Those are all perfectly fine cards in legacy. In a format where you can get Griselbrand t1, Emrakul t2, Chalice or Blood Moon t1, 20/20 marit lage by turn 2, and Tendrils for 20 by turn 2-3, those 3 cards you are calling 'scum' are hardly worth the effort to complain about.

    As a Depths player I would think the absence of Strix would be hilarious. I don't have to play around that AND Edict effects anymore? Hymn is a crucial, and hard to cast, weapon for mid-range decks to fight fast combo and gain card advantage against the other control decks. Snapcaster is hardly a problem. And Counterbalance? I haven't seen that card in ages, even considering Delver decks have been so prevalent (which have a very difficult time against CB.)
    Snapcaster is tolerable insofar as it keeps down legacy’s original 2cmc format-ruining card: Goyf. The price everyone has to pay for SCM is Hymn spam. All the non-blue decks can go on about how good Hymn is, but they get brutalized by anyone playing better Hymns (b/c flashback). Hymn is the mechanism by which fair non-blue decks are made unplayable, as they are unable to progress without playing into discard, flying deathtouch cantrips, and Shatter/Shock. They just banned the one card those decks could use to invalidate that combination of interactions while also proactively winning; now it’s back to Sylvan. Not exactly a great payoff card when 3c + Astro can effortlessly splash enchant removal before Sylvan ever gets a chance to recoup hand size.

    Those non-blue fair decks are all alone now, no longer able to rely on blue spamming Wrenns such that Hymn/Strix and CB were pushed out of the format. Have fun being forced to run Decay (b/c CB) while Hymn blows your hand apart. Dark days are ahead.

    Wrenn was a stupid card for sure, but way healthier than Goyf, CB, or Hymn (b/c Snapcaster) ever were. Legacy just banned the least offensive of the 2cmc format-ruiners it has had.

  14. #21874
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Hymn is the mechanism by which fair non-blue decks are made unplayable, as they are unable to progress without playing into discard, flying deathtouch cantrips, and Shatter/Shock. They just banned the one card those decks could use to invalidate that combination of interactions while also proactively winning; now it’s back to Sylvan. Not exactly a great payoff card when 3c + Astro can effortlessly splash enchant removal before Sylvan ever gets a chance to recoup hand size.
    They just printed a card that lets you punish Hymns: Veil of Summer. I'm not sure Hymn is as powerful anymore.. Maybe it is, I'm just saying there is perhaps reason to test and reevaluate.

    Furthermore, I always felt it was Kolaghan's Command much more than Hymn that was a problem (from the perspective of non-blue decks). K Command is like a Hymn acting on cards in play. Actually Veil does help with that too, though.

  15. #21875
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The key is, what you consider "ruining the format" can also be considering the "minimum power level of the format." Hymn and Counterbalance are powerful cards. Banning something just for being powerful is possibly the worst possible reasoning though. Once upon a time, 'Goyf was overly ubiquitous and pretty powerful. It wasn't bannable though, but it was plausibly ban-worthy though.

    Just like Brainstorm is demonstrably ban-worthy, it also is (viewed as) the basic dictator of format viability. I don't think Wrenn needed to be banned, but I'm not upset or surprised that it was (yes, I own 3). I actually think Wrenn was ban-worthy, but not really bannable. However, I think they have 0 intention to reprinting it any time soon, and also, they want GP Balona to have an "interesting" meta-game, so it got the (only somewhat deserved) axe.

    However, I think people need to also keep in mind that going forward, the MTGO meta is the Legacy meta, as far as Wizards is concerned. Paper is an afterthought.
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  16. #21876
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    No unbans this time. 100% convinced the "prisoner exchange" policy is a farce. Unban Earthcraft you cowards.

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Without talking about the substance of this specific ban, what are the thoughts on this boom-bust cycle we've seen with very impactful printings that end up short lived in the format?
    I've heard lots of talk about Standard and the need to sell packs preventing them from banning their obvious moneymaker, but in Legacy it's a rarity for something to make wakes in the format; but even if it does, it's even rarer to see it leave so quickly.
    I recall older discussions about some of the popular cards to unban, the arguments made that if the cards were truly overpowered, you could just ban them again and all would be well.
    The retort to that was that Legacy is good at being stable, that change happens slowly and you don't want to rock the boat with a sudden power shift and then make it worse by suddenly shifting back.
    And so here we have an opportunity to observe a good facsimile to a potent unban & ban, to see if it really upsets the community that the meta isn't as molasses slow as they'd like to believe it to be.
    I don't like it one bit. People like to say that legacy can and will adjust itself around broken cards but now we have another example of a card that was banned because of how good it was in fair blue decks. It feels like they're saying that delver decks have hit the upper limit of how strong they are allowed to be and any further escalation will be met with a ban. How do you print ANYTHING new with that rule in place?

  17. #21877
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Veil isn’t exactly maindeckable, but yes it does help vs Hymn as it’s effectively a 3-for-none (replaces itself, opponent is down a card playing against 2 more cards than they would have been). Veil doesn’t really represent a healthy design trajectory, but it’s tolerable.

    Grixis “control” is back though, it’ll have a dual with green and some Astrolabes for Oko and ~2x enchant killers. We could call this innovation, but it’s more of a foregone conclusion.

  18. #21878
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    D&T is back I guess. that's good news :)

  19. #21879
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    People continue to rejoice in bans rather than adjusting their strategies.

    It's like people haven't realized that one-mana hate-cards are good at dealing with two-mana value cards.
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  20. #21880
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    People continue to rejoice in bans rather than adjusting their strategies.

    It's like people haven't realized that one-mana hate-cards are good at dealing with two-mana value cards.
    Nobody is rejoicing, and I think plenty of people were adjusting their strategies. I am a little surprised that W6 got banned, but I think overall it will be a healthier format because of it. I honestly think Oko should have cost 2GU instead of 1GU; it would still be playable but not nearly as miserable. It's the next card on the watch list, just look at what it did to Standard. They banned their friggin' poster-boy for the format.
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