View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #22881
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    If you're happy with every format ever, this raises a couple of questions.. Can you even evaluate format health (image of dog in burning house comes to mind)? Legacy has been quite bad at times. Why not let others have their changes if it doesn't matter to you, you'll be happy regardless. With that said, of course one can join the discussion for the sake of discussion anyway, nothing wrong with that.

    No, people aren't always unhappy, we wrote about this on at least two places on this page, I'll write it a third time, basically everyone was very happy before WotS, the statement of complainers never being content is clearly wrong, it actually seems like irrational complaining (how ironic). Discontent is widespread and strong in the community, now there are players who don't care about format diversity, they don't play the decks that are hurt by the bad printings and they don't understand that there's a problem because their style of decks (maybe something with a combo in it or brainstorm+fow) isn't affected. If you don't understand the problem it's of course ok, but I think you should be able to recognise widespread discontent.
    Last edited by pettdan; 09-17-2020 at 07:27 AM.

  2. #22882

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    If you're happy with every format ever, this raises a couple of questions.. Can you even evaluate format health (image of dog in burning house comes to mind)? Legacy has been quite bad at times. Why not let others have their changes if it doesn't matter to you, you'll be happy regardless. With that said, of course one can join the discussion for the sake of discussion anyway, nothing wrong with that.

    No, people aren't always unhappy, we wrote about this on at least two places on this page, I'll write it a third time, basically everyone was very happy before WotS, the statement of complainers never being content is clearly wrong, it actually seems like irrational complaining (how ironic). Discontent is widespread and strong in the community, now there are players who don't care about format diversity, they don't play the decks that aren't hurt by the bad printings and they don't understand that there's a problem because their style of decks (maybe something with a combo in it or brainstorm+fow) isn't affected. If you don't understand the problem it's of course ok, but I think you should be able to recognise widespread discontent.
    While I kind of envy his contentedness, it actually shines a light on the most important question.
    What matters most is how to make the format so that people actually want to play it.
    Currently I don't see that.

    It will be interesting to see which format can recover once in person playing will be possible again, but given the current prices, I would assume everyone leaving legacy will not return.
    Given that online play is being moved to arena, legacy on modo will also die sooner or later.

  3. #22883

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    While I kind of envy his contentedness, it actually shines a light on the most important question.
    What matters most is how to make the format so that people actually want to play it.
    Currently I don't see that.

    It will be interesting to see which format can recover once in person playing will be possible again, but given the current prices, I would assume everyone leaving legacy will not return.
    Given that online play is being moved to arena, legacy on modo will also die sooner or later.
    People leaving legacy is good for prices (esp online) and that's good for there player base, but that's outside this thread

  4. #22884

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Yes, that is why they have allowed the problem to persist so long.
    If they get to be as big as brainstorm yes.
    It's actually one of the tightest arguments because how ubiquitous a card is is simply a numbers game. Numbers we can readily compute. We can set a threshold and ban anything other than basic lands that meet that threshold.
    That sounds like a pretty awful idea tbh

  5. #22885

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sella View Post
    That sounds like a pretty awful idea tbh
    So is legacy right now.

  6. #22886
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    If you're happy with every format ever, this raises a couple of questions.. Can you even evaluate format health (image of dog in burning house comes to mind)? Legacy has been quite bad at times. Why not let others have their changes if it doesn't matter to you, you'll be happy regardless. With that said, of course one can join the discussion for the sake of discussion anyway, nothing wrong with that.
    This ^
    I also don't want this discussion to devolve into ad hominems of "you guys always complain, look how good I am for not" - which it seems it was heading to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    While I kind of envy his contentedness, it actually shines a light on the most important question.
    What matters most is how to make the format so that people actually want to play it.
    Currently I don't see that.
    My main concern too.
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    It's amazing people still get a kick from pointing out how good fetchlands are with DRS and cantrips etc. It's like it's some secret that they're graciously unveiling for the rest of us.

    'Brainstorm and DRS are very powerful cards...'

    'ACKSHUALLY'

  7. #22887
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I was just pointing out that the complaint arguments are cylical. Just have a gander through the 1145 pages of this thread if you don't want to believe what I'm saying.

    There are just as many viable decks in the format as there has been at any other point, and just as much design space for brewing and innovation.

    Either way, I'm not sure why I even decided to post in here. Carry on.
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  8. #22888

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    So is legacy right now.
    I don't like Legacy much these days either.

    ----------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    I was just pointing out that the complaint arguments are cylical.
    How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Just have a gander through the 1145 pages of this thread if you don't want to believe what I'm saying.
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    There are just as many viable decks in the format as there has been at any other point,
    I wouldn't say the issue is necessarily the number of viable decks, but rather the number of viable archetypes/playstyles/whatever you want to call it.
    50 shades of Delver is still, well, all Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    and just as much design space for brewing and innovation.
    Not in a good way imho (innovating neat decks is fine, innovating off the back of 3-4c untouchable manabases a-la-astrolabe is probably unhealthy)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Either way, I'm not sure why I even decided to post in here. Carry on.
    We will.

  9. #22889

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Your post was fun, Sella. It made me smile.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  10. #22890

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    People leaving legacy is good for prices (esp online) and that's good for there player base, but that's outside this thread
    Definitely good for the paper playbase, that means Commander has access to more dual lands.

  11. #22891
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    I was just pointing out that the complaint arguments are cylical. Just have a gander through the 1145 pages of this thread if you don't want to believe what I'm saying.

    There are just as many viable decks in the format as there has been at any other point, and just as much design space for brewing and innovation.

    Either way, I'm not sure why I even decided to post in here. Carry on.
    Certainly didn't mean to scare/offend you away, I just wanted to put the statement in another light. Anyway, do as you prefer, and welcome back whenever you feel like discussing things.

    Being cyclical doesn't mean there is no problem causing it. Recessions are cyclical, it doesn't make them less of a problem. The relevant thing to note here was, imo, that the vast majority are sometimes happy with the format. I can't really prove that but consuming a lot of Legacy content daily for years gives some sort of interpretation of events, trends etc. There can be different interpretations too, I'm just providing mine. Edit: to be more clear, the cyclical problems aren't some kind of natural complaint cycle, it's caused by an unhealthy format.
    Last edited by pettdan; 09-18-2020 at 02:37 PM.

  12. #22892

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Definitely good for the paper playbase, that means Commander has access to more dual lands.
    It uses to be "how can we expand the players base, we need moar people and bigger tournaments", now there is excitement over how poorly things are being run and that people are bouncing.

    2020 is weird.

  13. #22893
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Balanced Standard is balanced

    Looks like Uro might get a bit cheaper. Although I doubt just hammering Uro is going to see the effect WotC wishes to see. This whole F.I.R.E. design philosophy is throughly fucked. Even if they ban something, then players will flock around the next pushed card until it gets banned, too. Repeat ad nauseam.

    While it seems to be the new business strategy to please Hasbro's shareholders, this isn't going to be sustainable forever, as more and more people are getting turned off.

  14. #22894

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Balanced Standard is balanced

    Looks like Uro might get a bit cheaper. Although I doubt just hammering Uro is going to see the effect WotC wishes to see. This whole F.I.R.E. design philosophy is throughly fucked. Even if they ban something, then players will flock around the next pushed card until it gets banned, too. Repeat ad nauseam.

    While it seems to be the new business strategy to please Hasbro's shareholders, this isn't going to be sustainable forever, as more and more people are getting turned off.
    Uro and Fabled Passage at the minimum need to go. Winota and Ugin can take a hike as well. I'm just assuming that everything in Zendikar is off limits for bans right now. Those four plus Lucky Clover would cover most of the issues in standard, except for the overabundance of Flash creatures they've gotten away with for the last two years while Teferi was keeping them down.

  15. #22895
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Is there an announcement coming today?
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  16. #22896
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Is there an announcement coming today?
    Uro is about to get repriced if the announcement is the be believed. It was something along the lines of no emergent changes this past weekend for tournament integrity blah blah.

  17. #22897
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  18. #22898
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Nice, I grabbed three on Friday, on Arena. So now I get my 3 wildcards back, plus the one I already had from a pack. I really only play Historic on there anyway.
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  19. #22899

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Don't worry, someone on Twitter already solved the new Standard.

  20. #22900
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Don't worry, someone on Twitter already solved the new Standard.
    Heck, you could buy a Legacy deck for the price of those!
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