Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
See, that just seems so innocuous to me - plus, TC and DTT are banned, so I see where you're coming from, but in this context they're not relevant to the Legacy we're discussing.
As for the second part, I don't think there has ever been a game improved in any way by Chalice of the Void, or Thorn of Amethyst, or Griselbrand, but I don't think they need to be banned either.
So the issue with Gitaxian is more that if it isn't a problem, then it's lurking around until it can make itself a problem. The same can be said of Counterbalance, massive lurking problem but currently no supporting piece. These cards will never stop trying to blight the format; the mechanical problems they create when combined with other cards only exist b/c of the original cards [CB, Probe]. The example could be expanded to DRS and Brainstorm; it's actually the mechanics of fetchlands that made the problem possible. It doesn't make much sense to not ban the actual problem, but keep banning all the cards (that they are going to keep printing) which can exploit the mechanical flaw.
The bit about fetchlands comes with an asterisk, their absence would create irreconcilable financial death spiral until such a time that the RL policy was rescinded.
Chalice/Thorn are a function of Ancient Tomb being legal. Grisel is enabled, in the most offensive form (B/R reanimator), by Chancellor of the Annex being legal [also SnT]. I don't think these two are pressing issues, but if approaching these as problems to be solved, I'd begin analysis here.
As an opinion, I don't mind broken things in legacy, but I do want there to be a reasonable expectation that gamestates break down and devolve somewhat to the point that a matchup was at least interesting if not genuinely interactive. There was nothing thought provoking or interesting with U/R TC Delver, OmniTell w/ DTT, nor CB/SDT lock.
I beg to differ. These cards offer the same advantages to the format that Bloodmoon, Back to Basics or Rest in Peace do. They punish you for building in a hyperfocused, linear way. If we are going to accept that playing decks with 8 to 12 one drop "Air" cards in them for filtering is ok, we need to accept an answer also needs to be available.
I will agree is sucks to be on the receiving end of these cards, God knows I have likely lost to a Bloodmoon more than any of you have to a Chalice, but these cards are a safety valve for those times the format becomes too inbred and insular
Yes, I totally agree, that's why I think they should remain legal. My point was that "subjectively unenjoyable play experiences" are not necessarily a ban criteria for Legacy, and that I feel most of the arguments against GP or DRS fall into this category (where people just don't like playing against them, not that they're broken).
I totally agree. What I love about legacy is the battle between popular stategies and strategies praying on popular strategies. As long as the anti-cards exist no strategy can be too dominant. Chalice, thalia et al, blood moon and rest in peace are such cards.. They are valuable for the format's health!
That's fair, but I do wish to debate one thing. I run Chalice and Sphere in the side of Lands. Used to be Thorn but Aluren punched me and I adapted. I would argue that combo matches have been improved by putting a gate up and forcing a reaction in place of a goldfish. I don't think it's much fun for an ANT player to win without ever facing a single speed bump or question.
In place of counters, hand disruption or Mindbreak cards like Chalice, Thorn or Sphere do allow for some games to be far more interesting and interactive than they otherwise would have been. Because they grant both the player using them and the player who sideboards right against them a game of cat and mouse, knowing when to react and what you need to win. Games improved by these Artifacts.
Just don't make it Modern legal.
Yup, still agree - I just think people make it out like Probe is a zero skill card, which is false, especially in the context of, "welp, here's a sol land and a chalice, hope you didn't need any of your one-drops" as though playing those cards somehow makes them more skillful than players that like cantrips.
So many of the posters seem to just call for everything to be banned, but never talk about what the ideal games of their desired format would be. If people just want to ram non-blue duders into each other/each other's removal and have top-deck wars to see who wins, there are actually a ton of magic formats that focus on just that kind of play. In legacy, sometimes you have to play against strategies you don't personally enjoy; in exchange, you can play any strategy you do personally enjoy. (Edit: well, except maybe non-tempo aggro? Certainly, decks come in and out of vogue, especially now that Miracles is much weaker.)
That's why I focus on Chalice and its ilk as a Storm player: are they miserable, reductive cards that seem to lack any particular nuance or skill? Maybe to me personally, but my opinion on that doesn't matter, and I understand they are valuable to the format for the reasons you've stated that I agree with on a high level. Thus, I don't think they should be banned.
Ultimately, what I'm getting at is that all of these cards are fine. One of legacy's strengths is its diverse strategic options, and I think calling for ever more bannings only risks losing those choices.
Last edited by taconaut; 10-06-2017 at 03:22 PM.
Probe being banned would basically (probably) swap Grixis Delver for BUG Delver, Grixis Control for BUG Control (.. maybe*) and.. that's about it.
The main thing about Probe is that it makes the parts of the game that are not supposed to be deterministic become deterministic and it lowers the skill threshold of decks that use it. The things it enables in Legacy are also only bad:
* Pumps graveyards (routinely a problem)
* It costs 0 mana (routinely a problem)
* Thusly boosts Oops, Dredge, and Belcher -> These are things nobody wants; even those players ;p
* Is an Instant/Sorcery for Delver that is never bad (barring Chalice/D&T)
* Makes Cabal Therapy *ridiculous* instead of just "Still usually the best discard"
Like.. Storm is still a deck without Probe, as is S&T, as is Grixis Delver etc.. but they no longer get the free ride they currently get. It's obnoxious that you can have a hand like Stifle, Force, Waste, (Ucard) and that be insufficient hate because the storm player saw it before using discard for "0" mana T1, fetched a basic despite needing a USea and knows that it takes 2+ discard to go off. It makes S&T less interesting because instead of presuming they can go off, they just *know*.
Card games are supposed to be somewhat non-deterministic, and GProbe not only has major traits of problem cards (and has been banned as such in the other formats) but it makes the "Card game" aspect no longer a thing. It removes bluffing for no mana, no tempo, no cards. It drops the skill level of your opponent on top of it.
I don't know if it's "Worthy" of a ban yet, but it's certainly obnoxious and has all the hallmarks of one. It *will* break something if it hasn't already. It's probably not causing Legacy to Hemorrhage players yet, so that's enough for me to be "meh" on it; but I certainly won't shed a tear if "Pyro, Probe, Cabal Cabal Go" isn't a thing on T2.
I don't imagine there is a single Dredge player who dislikes the Boost the deck gets from G-Probe. Dredge is struggling, and I can't understand why you think Dredge players would want the deck to struggle even more.
Personally Dredge is the only reason I particularly like the card (although I don’t think there's any good reason to ban it).
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Unless G-Probe enables the accurate prediction of every card either player will draw till the end of the game, play is not deterministic. There are still possibilities that need to be accounted for. G-Probe reveals a lot of information, but it doesn't remove the element of chance from the game any more than a Thoughtseize does.
Any slower deck not running CotV? :p
Regardless I'm not sure I believe every midrange and control deck in the format is a dog to Storm, S&T, and Delver. That sounds far fetched.
Supremacy 2020 is the modern era game of nuclear brinksmanship! My blog:
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You can play Lands.dec in EDH too! My primer:
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I don't think I can agree here as I don't see which decks "can't afford to run it" given the card is as unrestrictive as Mental Misstep which made it even into non-blue decks back in the days. In fact, decks like D&T haven't even explored to use Probe to determine if they should drop a Thalia or SFM turn two, for example.
Given that in like 60% of matchups across the meta you play against other decks with Cantrips, its quite a stretch to argue that a single Probe is able to reveal the opponents plays to come. Similar is true for non-blue matchups which include engines like Loam or any topdecking in general.
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Meta-question : Wouldn't a Legacy restricted list mitigate most of the conflict betweem proponents and opponents of certain cards?
Definitively not saying it should happen but through the prism of a restricted list, like a watchfog of the format, Legacy could stay stable despite any printings to come.
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Neither of the "Eternal" formats have a very stellar B&R management:
Modern: Too many bans too fast - while it has slowed down, they were pretty trigger happy when it was a PT format
Legacy: The exact opposite - they can't be assed to ban shit even when it's blatantly obvious that something is broken. 1 year to ban DTT and 3 years of Miracle's dominace are just the "latest" examples for that.
Vintage: Randy Buehler's friends complain on Twitter that they don't like card X and it gets restricted.
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