All B/R update speculation.

[Asthereal]

Dredge had years to not be shit and failed. Don't try to shove it all on Deathrite Shaman when it is only a fraction of a percent of the problem.

I think Wizards printed a couple of cheap grave hosers to compensate for Faithless Looting. Looting was exactly what LED Dredge had been waiting for. Careful Study and Deep Analysis in one. That's pretty dangerous because it increases explosiveness but also consistency.

[Dice_Box]

Mech, if these new cards really do become a thing, it will be yet another reason to Play DRS or RIP. At this point, to me they are much hype and little else. Powerful effects on cards that help out later in the game and have a strong dependence on the grave. That is answerable. Like Gofy before them, like DRS before them. In my mind all they will do if they see a lot of play is push decks like R/W Painter and DnT to a new position in the game. Hell might be time to break out the old Helm combo.

As for Wizards getting ready to hose Brainstorm. Well you surely are not the first person to claim that will happen, but I will believe it when I see it and not a moment before then. Don't hold your breath on it mate, you will live longer that way.

Lastly, new cards do not normally find their place in the format right away. If these cards really are going to snap the format in two, it will not be this year that it happens. It will be next year after everyone figurers out the most profitable way to use them. So I feel your "December will be the death of BS because new cards" is like saying "Spirit of the Labyrinth will be the death of Blue". Sure, some people can think that way, but I will watch them turn blue long before I join them in holding my breath.

[rufus]

2x Treasure Cruise in fast blue lists and 1x Treasure Cruise and 1x Dig Through Time in mid-range lists. I'm guessing that's where we wind up. Not sure about RUG Tempo being able to use either though. I think it may be the odd man out here unless it finds a replacement for Nimble Mongoose....

I could see storm decks running more of those, like 4x Dig Through Time in solidarity.

[Asthereal]

I could see storm decks running more of those, like 4x Dig Through Time in solidarity.

Not four, but definitely one in the side to Wish for, and perhaps 1-2 in the main deck.

[theBloody]

Keep Brainstorming \o/

[apple713]

they clearly don't care about legacy, so why don't they do something to shake up the format like unban a bunch of crap and just see what happens? having 1 bad season in order to potentially open up a lot of creativity is hardly a concession worth holding onto. Especially if the season does not affect the 1 event they have for legacy a year.

[FoolofaTook]

Not four, but definitely one in the side to Wish for, and perhaps 1-2 in the main deck.

That's how I see it. 2x DTT for combo/control. 1x DTT/1x TC for Midrange. 2x TC for aggro/control.

[Barsoom]

Chancellor of the Annex is not in all lists and it's only as likely to be in the opening hand as DRS is. It has to be displayed before the game begins which means that it doesn't counter DRS it just delays it. I'll always Ponder or Thoughtseize or even Brainstorm or bolt on turn 1 just to get rid of the encumbrance but I almost never see a Chancellor actually displayed on turn 0. It might be like a 1/6 occurrence tops. Turn 2 DRS will beat Manaless Dredge like 80% of the time. Especially if one or more of their opening cards was Chancellor of the Annex.

That is, again, totally wrong. You have around 40% to get a chancellor in the opening 7 card hand, just like the shaman. And a shaman t2 won't beat manaless 80% of the times, at all; if you play shaman t2 i can dredge one time already and most of the time keep going on even with an active shaman from there. 4x Street Wraith really helps with that situation too. If you really care that much about shaman you can play Contagion in the sideboard too but again he is not the main problem.
Dunno if you are just theorycrafting but i played manaless in real life too and that's my experience, i'm not saying that shaman is not a problem i'm saying that's a small problem and easily beatable for manaless compared to GC and RIP. Anyway we are going off topic so let's stop here, we clearly have 2 totally different opinions/experiences and that's all.

[nedleeds]

Well, with no unbanning and only good blue cards in the new set I think that's it for me. Hoof derp or brainstorm at this point. I'm just glad there are Saturday Vintage events at EW because the brainstorm circlejerk is real fucking old.

[FoolofaTook]

That is, again, totally wrong. You have around 40% to get a chancellor in the opening 7 card hand, just like the shaman. And a shaman t2 won't beat manaless 80% of the times, at all; if you play shaman t2 i can dredge one time already and most of the time keep going on even with an active shaman from there. 4x Street Wraith really helps with that situation too. If you really care that much about shaman you can play Contagion in the sideboard too but again he is not the main problem.
Dunno if you are just theorycrafting but i played manaless in real life too and that's my experience, i'm not saying that shaman is not a problem i'm saying that's a small problem and easily beatable for manaless compared to GC and RIP. Anyway we are going off topic so let's stop here, we clearly have 2 totally different opinions/experiences and that's all.

Many Manaless Dredge decks don't play Chancellor of the Annex main list. It's nowhere near an optimal card for them. I've matched up against Ichorid of some type 4 times in the last month and a half, including matches against 2 different players of the Manaless variant and I haven't see Chancellor played by either of them in either match.

It could be that your meta is different and everybody who plays Manaless Dredge includes Chancellor as a 4-of but I've only seen it played against me once this summer. I didn't lose that game either and I'm pretty sure I mulled to 4 to find a Grafdigger's Cage and then Pondered turn 1 to get rid of the encumbrance.

[Barook]

Have people forgotten how people abused the GY basically as a second library before DRS/RiP?

DRS is ridiculously powerful, but I'm not so sure anymore if it isn't a necessary evil to keep GY decks in check.

[Will_L]

Well, with no unbanning and only good blue cards in the new set I think that's it for me. Hoof derp or brainstorm at this point. I'm just glad there are Saturday Vintage events at EW because the brainstorm circlejerk is real fucking old.

Stay mad, keep complaining

[LOLWut]

Chancellor of the Annex is not in all lists and it's only as likely to be in the opening hand as DRS is. It has to be displayed before the game begins which means that it doesn't counter DRS it just delays it. I'll always Ponder or Thoughtseize or even Brainstorm or bolt on turn 1 just to get rid of the encumbrance but I almost never see a Chancellor actually displayed on turn 0. It might be like a 1/6 occurrence tops. Turn 2 DRS will beat Manaless Dredge like 80% of the time. Especially if one or more of their opening cards was Chancellor of the Annex.

Not to sound too harsh, but you post a lot of dumb stuff. DRS is not a big problem for Manaless Dredge's viability.

Well, with no unbanning and only good blue cards in the new set I think that's it for me. Hoof derp or brainstorm at this point. I'm just glad there are Saturday Vintage events at EW because the brainstorm circlejerk is real fucking old.

Enjoy your 70-90% saturation MoxWalkRecallLotusMisstep circlejerk

[nedleeds]

Stay mad, keep complaining

Not really mad, more like, 'nothing to see here' anymore. There isn't much room for anything that isn't a Brainstorm deck, or Hoof Derp ... at least in a longer (8+ round) legacy event. I'll play in my local weeklies just to socialize, those are normally only 4 rounds so not having the consistency of Brainderp can sometimes work out. Legacy champs is going to be an orgy of blue and hoof derp.

Just glad I own power so I can entertain myself at EW.

[menace13]

enjoy your 70% saturation brainstorm circlejerk

ftfy

[btm10]

Not really mad, more like, 'nothing to see here' anymore. There isn't much room for anything that isn't a Brainstorm deck, or Hoof Derp ... at least in a longer (8+ round) legacy event. I'll play in my local weeklies just to socialize, those are normally only 4 rounds so not having the consistency of Brainderp can sometimes work out. Legacy champs is going to be an orgy of blue and hoof derp.

Just glad I own power so I can entertain myself at EW.

I'm going to continue to play Legacy for the time being, though I agree that it's getting a little stale, especially compared to Vintage (which has gotten a lot more vibrant recently). I'm less irritated by Brainstorm than I am by Delver, but I'm pretty hesitant to join the chorus calling for a ban at the moment.

I think we're going to see a rise in non-sanctioned quasi-eternal formats like build a block and '93-'94 if Legacy doesn't improve, because a lot of people don't own power.

[LOLWut]

ftfy

And if you don't like Brainstorm being in the high 60s%, you'll love Vintage with its most common nonland card being in the low 90s%, its top 5 nonland cards all being above 75% (Legacy's top 5 are all above 35%), and its next 10 nonland cards ranging from ~50-75% (Legacy's having ~20-30%).

[nedleeds]

I guess you don't understand the restricted list then.

[infiniteJ]

I'm going to continue to play Legacy for the time being, though I agree that it's getting a little stale, especially compared to Vintage (which has gotten a lot more vibrant recently). I'm less irritated by Brainstorm than I am by Delver, but I'm pretty hesitant to join the chorus calling for a ban at the moment.

I think we're going to see a rise in non-sanctioned quasi-eternal formats like build a block and '93-'94 if Legacy doesn't improve, because a lot of people don't own power.

Anecdotally:
In 8 rounds of the invitational and 8 rounds of the open in one weekend last month, I faced 2 delver decks.
In 6 rounds of the open in Atlanta, I faced zero blue decks.

At GP DC last year, I faced I think 5 delver decks in a row and no non-blue decks on day one. Day 2 was a little more varied (elves x2, storm, dnt, merfolk and goblins).

Just a theory: I think miracles (and maybe elves) has pushed some of the delver decks out of the format.

With some of the new delve cards, Delver may make a come back.

-IJ

-IJ

[Megadeus]

If these Delve cards really are the shit like some people have been saying, I'll be Red Blasting all of the things.