View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #19281
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Ok, long post, can't write short posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    [...], but I think this further detracts from the point you're trying to make: if all of these shells demand wildly different responses, even if a curated probe hand looks similar, doesn't that lend credence to the notion that brainstorm improves diversity, rather than stifling it? Sure, some of the cards are the same, but the games are not.
    So, a card is played in a couple of different t1-t1.5 decks, using different strategies, and you think this indicates that it is good for format diversity? Could you not imagine a situation where more than a handful of decks using these different strategies would be considered competitive? I can imagine it, and it is easy [edit: it may not be so easy to achieve, but it is easy to imagine and something very positive to strive for], to the level that I find it hard to understand why so many people can't. More on this topic of imagination in a second.

    When you observe which decks are successful in legacy, it often seems apparent that they consist of the decks that fight or use Brainstorm (with a very small amount of exceptions based on very strong synergies or super redundancy, but this can be discussed too) to the level that decks that fight the decks that fight Brainstorm are becoming relevant decks. Which is in itself a good thing... But it is still an indication of the polarization of the format into what seems to be a narrow set of relevant options. I think people who never try to build, and test, successful new decks (not using Brainstorm) won't notice. These are perhaps the same people that would argue that Brainstorm helps create format diversity. Although, like I've written before, we would need to try the format without Brainstorm to know for sure. Which I am considering, it could be fun and provide some relevant input on a difficult discussion.

    Furthermore, the argument can be presented that if a deck cantrips into threat + removal to take care of your threat and to present more threats than you and wins by doing that, it is perhaps not so important if it's the Delver of Secrets or Baleful Strix that kills you and if it's Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt that destroys your threat. It's the cantrip into cantrip into cantrip that killed you, effectively. This is surely another argument with flaws [edit: and it has been presented many times, but not very convincingly it would appear] but I'll not write excessively on it right now, hopefully the idea of what can be perceived as monotonous is clear. However [edit: sorry if I get repetitive here, I've been rewriting this post too many times, pre posting], I get the idea that everyone who compliments Brainstorm for the positive effect it has on format diversity has low expectations on format diversity. Maybe these are people who like to focus on a single successful deck and change 2-3 cards for their meta? Just guessing. Would be interesting to hear if someone who likes Brainstorm for the diversity it generates has tried to build 3-4 non-Brainstorm / non-Chalice decks over the last 24 months or so?

    On a related topic, I really hope we get the following creature printed soon: cost WG, power 2, toughness 2, shroud, each player can only draw 1 card each turn. With such a creature it would be very easy to summon a card that in a relevant way (doesn't die to Lightning Bolt) punishes excessive cantripping. Players can still cantrip all they want, it will just be possible and effective to interact with it. And we would need more such options. Just speculating, of course..

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    What fair deck do you want to play, but can't, because of the cantrips?
    Have you visited the Established Decks and New and Developmental Decks sections here? There are probably thousands of decks, and one can imagine how a more allowing meta would lead to more innovation rather than a status quo.
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  2. #19282
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc View Post
    Duress your FOW, good luck with Ancestral What, you Brainstorm
    Not suggesting Brainstorm is better, but it is clearly a broken card when the drawback is mitigated.
    That's an often repeated fallacy. If the Duress is followed up with a threat/combo, hiding your FoW did literally nothing positive. Ancestral remains plain better.
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  3. #19283
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    That's an often repeated fallacy. If the Duress is followed up with a threat/combo, hiding your FoW did literally nothing positive. Ancestral remains plain better.
    Good job at quoting the 'relevant' half, it was clearly meant to show the Ancestral/Brainstorm comparison is not fitting.

    This does not mean Brainstorm is an innocuous card. Some people like to use Ancestral to demonstrate a card draw at a wrong mana cost can be very dangerous, and I versed it in a less provoking way:
    Quote Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc View Post
    No other cards give you 3 fresh cards at 1 mana without card disadvantage. Wake me up when there is a Looting that draw 3 and discard 2. Did I mention the instant speed of Brainstorm?
    On the Sep 2011 Ban List Updates,
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    For the record (Because this seems to have been missed) when I mentioned Recall it was not in talk of having it be unbanned. The point was that arguments for keeping something in the format that should be removed only look like reasonable arguments when you put them next to an accepted and tolerated card. These arguments, all exactly the same, break down when you put them next to obviously unsafe cards. Recall has no merit in itself being debated, the card is not safe for removal.

    Because so many of the arguments used are based not on the merits of the card themselves but external abstractions like "Skill" and "Feels", not actual data points. Not that that matters anymore, the data is no longer valid because the card is protected from logical debate by Wotc.
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  5. #19285

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    I suppose you could just replace it with another land for a similar point, but the lightning bolt would make me lean towards grixis and fetch basics, because Czech really only plays one or so. If you replace the DRS, too it could be UB reanimator or ANT as well, but I think this further detracts from the point you're trying to make: if all of these shells demand wildly different responses, even if a curated probe hand looks similar, doesn't that lend credence to the notion that brainstorm improves diversity, rather than stifling it? Sure, some of the cards are the same, but the games are not.



    What fair deck do you want to play, but can't, because of the cantrips?
    I think his point is that cantrips are so good that you should either play them or play decks that prey on it like Dragon Stompy or Death and Taxes.

    I suppose it's the same thing with the boogeyman Deathrite Shaman. Decks like Reanimator and dredge still work fine with Deathrites running around, albeit with some adjustments. But an argument people have is that the card (shaman) is so good that you need a darn good reason not to run it.


    I find it funny that sure Deathrite is everywhere but so are all the blue cantrips. It's not like people are complaining about Deathrite in say Elves or Jund.


    Nothing imo should be banned. A few things could be unbanned actually. I'd bring back Sensei's Divining Top if they really changed the rules about Slow play infractions. But I'm not sure there's a way to crack down on that.

  6. #19286

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    That's an often repeated fallacy. If the Duress is followed up with a threat/combo, hiding your FoW did literally nothing positive. Ancestral remains plain better.
    Ancestral is obviously better than Brainstorm most of the time, but it's not -strictly- better because there are times where a Brainstorm lets you do something that Ancestral can't like set up an Infernal Tutor or your uncastable bricks, err miracle spells.

    There are also times where brainstorm feels closer to Ancestral than to a cantrip.

  7. #19287
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rascalyote View Post
    Ancestral is obviously better than Brainstorm most of the time, but it's not -strictly- better because there are times where a Brainstorm lets you do something that Ancestral can't like set up an Infernal Tutor or your uncastable bricks, err miracle spells.
    What you describe is the core functionality the card has for various combo decks and lots of conditional/redundant cards in the format like Emrakul/Griselbrand/Stifle/Daze/Removal/etc.
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  8. #19288

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    What you describe is the core functionality the card has for various combo decks and lots of conditional/redundant cards in the format like Emrakul/Griselbrand/Stifle/Daze/Removal/etc.
    No mention of how it combos with counterbalance or shelldock isle?

  9. #19289

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkin View Post
    I find it funny that sure Deathrite is everywhere but so are all the blue cantrips. It's not like people are complaining about Deathrite in say Elves or Jund.
    Not complaining about Elves. Also not about Miracles, Storm, or S&T.

    What worries me is too many creature based decks made of a balanced mix of threats and answered played on a fair mana curve - especially decks which run mostly cards that are independently good. So if Jund were a relevant deck, it would be part of the issue - another "good-stuff" fair creature deck. Yawn.

    I personally don't like to see fair, creature decks above 50%. Fair, "good-stuff" creature decks, I don't like to see above 40%. We need space for combo, and for prison/hard-control in order to have a well balanced meta.

    Right now the (potentially) offending decks all run cantrip, FoW, and DRS. One of those cards strongly pushes the overabundant play-style, the others do not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkin View Post
    Nothing imo should be banned.
    Agreed - at this time.
    Right now MTGTop8 has (non-elf) DRS decks at 36%. Considering the "tempo" versions are borderline midrange, that's a lot more than ideal.

    To put it in context, if 36% of the meta was combo that would be okay. But if that 36% where all Storm variations (Ruby, ANT, TES, High-Tide, Solidarity, and SI), that would be a lot uglier. Back to the midrange plague, if the meta share grows, and holds, I will advocate a ban. I would hate to see the top-16 at Birmingham become anything close to representative of the meta-game.
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  10. #19290

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    No mention of how it combos with counterbalance or shelldock isle?
    For that matter, Serum Visions is also not strictly worse than Recall. Obviously broken!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    For the record (Because this seems to have been missed) when I mentioned Recall it was not in talk of having it be unbanned. The point was that arguments for keeping something in the format that should be removed only look like reasonable arguments when you put them next to an accepted and tolerated card. These arguments, all exactly the same, break down when you put them next to obviously unsafe cards.
    Only if you don't understand the arguments in the first place.

    "Skill-testing" is bull crap, totally agreed.

    As for the other argument, we are not saying BS is okay because it fits in lots of different decks! Black Lotus also fits in just about any sort of deck.

    The argument is that BS fits into many (strategically) different decks which can coexist in a strategically balanced meta.

    You completely miss this because you are not personally concerned with strategic diversity, and you refuse to make an effort to understand that for some of us this is the primary concern.

    Recall could go in every deck, but there is zero reason to believe the result would be a strategically balanced meta! We know TC and DTT didn't. We know Brainstorm can and has. That's the difference.
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  11. #19291

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    .
    To all:
    Do you feel that facing grixis delver and facing the control variant (Czech) is much the same?
    Here's the real rub.

    When SDT was legal, I argued that Miracles was unique in being "hard control". The ban-bs-camp argued tooth and nail that, eg, the BUG midrange/control decks were absolutely control decks and very different from the delver decks.

    Now that Miracles has receded, the anti-blue-camp are saying the midrange/control decks are the same as the Delver decks!

    The irony is so rich!

    Quote Originally Posted by JDK View Post
    People calling BS "like Ancestral" should really just play with and against Ancestral instead of Brainstorm. Then delete your lies and apologize*.
    Never going to happen.

    Some folks have been holding out desperately for a BS ban (for years now). ArFo has ruined their dreams, and many are now frothing at the mouth.

    Maybe we should just leave them to stew for a while?
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  12. #19292

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Well, they never said that. They said They "are currently taking a break from one-mana accelerators in Standard". We knew they will come back.
    I am not talking about the recent decision to allow none.

    I'm talking about ~2004 when they said we couldn't have BoP & Llanowar standard legal at the same time because two dorks were too many.
    A year or two later, Llanowar, BoP, Deep Shadow, and Boreal Druid were all in the same Standard. Point being WotC likes to flip-flops.
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  13. #19293

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    You completely miss this because you are not personally concerned with strategic diversity, and you refuse to make an effort to understand that for some of us this is the primary concern.
    And what you are missing is that a lot of us are asking for strategic and (let's call it) tactical diversity. Brainstorm (+fetches) stifles this by making cantrips the best possible engine. We just want this engine to be turned down a notch (not killed off!!!) so that other engines will become viable. I guess a Ponder + Preordain ban could achieve the same thing but I like to have the least amount of cards on the banlist.

  14. #19294

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nielsie View Post
    And what you are missing is that a lot of us are asking for strategic and (let's call it) tactical diversity. Brainstorm (+fetches) stifles this by making cantrips the best possible engine. We just want this engine to be turned down a notch (not killed off!!!) so that other engines will become viable. I guess a Ponder + Preordain ban could achieve the same thing but I like to have the least amount of cards on the banlist.
    I understand that.
    1. Personally I'm less concerned with diversity in engines because they are not the most interactive parts of the deck. I want decks to play differently against each other. I care a lot less how each deck manages its own resources (aka, how they play with themselves).
    2. I think a lot of the other engines are on par (or close to it) in the decks they support. the difference is that they are narrow and support fewer archetypes. And they mostly support unfair strategies. If you're playing fair MTG, cantrips are the best. Playing combo or prison, not so much.
    I do understand the desire for more engines that support fair magic. But I don't believe health of the format hinges on that for the reasons above.
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  15. #19295

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    I understand that.
    1. Personally I'm less concerned with diversity in engines because they are not the most interactive parts of the deck. I want decks to play differently against each other. I care a lot less how each deck manages its own resources (aka, how they play with themselves).
    2. I think a lot of the other engines are on par (or close to it) in the decks they support. the difference is that they are narrow and support fewer archetypes. And they mostly support unfair strategies. If you're playing fair MTG, cantrips are the best. Playing combo or prison, not so much.
    I do understand the desire for more engines that support fair magic. But I don't believe health of the format hinges on that for the reasons above.
    The second point feels like progress. A lot of people here remember fair decks not running Brainstorm. There used to be zoo, goblins, Merfolk, deadguy and some fringe ones. Prison decks run thalia or chalice and related cards which hasn't changed much. Combo is still diverse.

    The first point is wrong and a bit bizarre?

  16. #19296

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    So, a card is played in a couple of different t1-t1.5 decks, using different strategies, and you think this indicates that it is good for format diversity?

    Yes, there is a plurality of diverse decks that share a handful of powerful, efficient cards. That's the benefit of an eternal format.

    Could you not imagine a situation where more than a handful of decks using these different strategies would be considered competitive?

    I think Legacy has the best variety of these different strategies, in fact - we have fair creature decks, unfair creature decks, engine combo, A+B combo, tempo, Prison, hybrid midrange/combo, control decks, etc.

    Furthermore, the argument can be presented that if a deck cantrips into threat + removal to take care of your threat and to present more threats than you and wins by doing that, it is perhaps not so important if it's the Delver of Secrets or Baleful Strix that kills you and if it's Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt that destroys your threat. It's the cantrip into cantrip into cantrip that killed you, effectively.

    This just isn't true, and I don't understand why people feel this way - the cantrips (mostly) just allow you to find what you need, when you need it - that makes the format MORE interactive, not less, because if you can't find the right answer to your opponent's threat, you should just be running your own busted threat. For an example of that dynamic, look at Modern. Moreover, it IS important what their threat was - I'm sure you side differently for Storm, Delver, Miracles, and Sneak and Show, right?

    I get the idea that everyone who compliments Brainstorm for the positive effect it has on format diversity has low expectations on format diversity.

    I already addressed this, Legacy is very strategically diverse.

    Maybe these are people who like to focus on a single successful deck and change 2-3 cards for their meta? Just guessing. Would be interesting to hear if someone who likes Brainstorm for the diversity it generates has tried to build 3-4 non-Brainstorm / non-Chalice decks over the last 24 months or so?

    What cards are you trying to play that can't compete? Of course there will still be some that just don't cut the mustard; the nature of an eternal format with 25+ years worth of cards is that some will just be better than others, and bannings will not change that. Is whatever you're trying to build going to beat Elves? DnT? BR Reanimator? There's always going to be a set of cards in a given format that are the most efficient, cutting off heads of the hydra just changes which neck is next.

    On a related topic, I really hope we get the following creature printed soon: cost WG, power 2, toughness 2, shroud, each player can only draw 1 card each turn. With such a creature it would be very easy to summon a card that in a relevant way (doesn't die to Lightning Bolt) punishes excessive cantripping. Players can still cantrip all they want, it will just be possible and effective to interact with it. And we would need more such options. Just speculating, of course..

    Personally, I think that card sounds boring as hell, but I get why people might want to see it, and it would technically be fair. If you just want to draw one card a turn and punch each other with bears, have you tried limited? That is not a dig or an insult, I love drafting and I think they make some excellent sets for it, but when I want to play constructed, I want exciting things to happen, not just "play my guy, kill your guy, attack."

    Have you visited the Established Decks and New and Developmental Decks sections here? There are probably thousands of decks, and one can imagine how a more allowing meta would lead to more innovation rather than a status quo.

    I have yet to be convinced why this would be better, and people still have not volunteered their brews oppressed by brainstorm. The nature of eternal formats is that there is a status quo, because the cardpool has been pored over for many years, and the cream of the crop has (mostly) been found. There are rotating formats, and formats like Modern where the interaction is poor, so there's lots of space to play whatever wacky threat you want; I don't think making Legacy more like those formats makes Legacy better, when those formats already exist.

    Edit: also, looking this over again, I fear I sound combative, but I do enjoy reading your posts and don't want to come off as harsh. I think we just want different things from the format. The difference is, I'm afraid I can't get what I want from any format but the current iteration of Legacy, where what you want is available elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    The point was that arguments for keeping something in the format that should be removed only look like reasonable arguments when you put them next to an accepted and tolerated card. These arguments, all exactly the same, break down when you put them next to obviously unsafe cards.

    I'm not sure this makes sense - isn't this kinda like saying, "some cards are bannable and like other cards, so all cards are bannable?" Thorn of Amethyst and Chalice of the Void are similar to and literally the same as Thalia and Chalice of the Void, but saying we should obviously ban them in legacy because they are restricted in Vintage is equally farcial, as I'm sure you would agree ("Thalia is even strictly better because she can attack and hold a jitte!!"). The formats are different and demand different things, and card power is on a spectrum, we can debate where the bannability line is on that spectrum.

    Because so many of the arguments used are based not on the merits of the card themselves but external abstractions like "Skill" and "Feels", not actual data points. Not that that matters anymore, the data is no longer valid because the card is protected from logical debate by Wotc.

    This is more reasonable, but I don't think the "feels" argument is unique to a particular perspective. There are plenty of cantrip detractors who are arguing that BUG/Grixis/ANT/Miracles/etc "feel" the same to play against because of the cantrips. I also think it's possible to see that data and interpret it differently; I both acknowledge that brainstorm is a busted magic card and feel that it meaningfully improves the format, and is fun to play. It would be justifiable to ban it based on numbers, but I also think that would be a mistake.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nielsie View Post
    We just want this engine to be turned down a notch (not killed off!!!) so that other engines will become viable.

    Once again, what other engines?

    Are they going to beat Elves, DnT, BR Reanimator?


  17. #19297

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I decided to back up my previous post with some numbers. I'm on a train and bored so why not?

    Per mtg top 8 for the full 2011 year the following fair decks without brainstorm but with > 1% meta share are:

    Merfolk 7%
    Zoo 7%
    Goblins 3%
    The rock 4%

    Guess how many fair decks without brainstorm have > 1% meta share now? (Note: I consider thalia decks prison not fair)

  18. #19298

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Still wondering why Top was banned... Every major paper event since the ban has had every round go to time++.

  19. #19299
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    As for the other argument, we are not saying BS is okay because it fits in lots of different decks! Black Lotus also fits in just about any sort of deck.

    The argument is that BS fits into many (strategically) different decks which can coexist in a strategically balanced meta.

    You completely miss this because you are not personally concerned with strategic diversity, and you refuse to make an effort to understand that for some of us this is the primary concern.

    Recall could go in every deck, but there is zero reason to believe the result would be a strategically balanced meta! We know TC and DTT didn't. We know Brainstorm can and has. That's the difference.
    Oh I understand all this, I just think it's a hollow and shit argument. Because against my comment is where you can put in another broken card and the argument still holds. Here:

    The argument is that Recall fits into many (strategically) different decks which can coexist in a strategically balanced meta.

    Looks weak to me. But Recall would go in Control, Midrange, Combo... Strategic derversity...

    Any yes, it could go into everything and it might not be balanced, but we already have a card that does that.

    Also my argument is not about Cantrips, I am not looking to axe them all like I think that would make Legacy better. Just that one, very very broken card.

    We have a card that already stifles every fucking thing, it's that card alone that in my mind is the issue, not the idea that the Blue engine would not exist after or even continue to be dominate. I'm not a total idiot, I am aware it would be.
    Last edited by Dice_Box; 05-17-2018 at 10:14 AM. Reason: Autocorect makes mince of my words sometimes.
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  20. #19300

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    Not complaining about Elves. Also not about Miracles, Storm, or S&T.

    What worries me is too many creature based decks made of a balanced mix of threats and answered played on a fair mana curve - especially decks which run mostly cards that are independently good. So if Jund were a relevant deck, it would be part of the issue - another "good-stuff" fair creature deck. Yawn.

    I personally don't like to see fair, creature decks above 50%. Fair, "good-stuff" creature decks, I don't like to see above 40%. We need space for combo, and for prison/hard-control in order to have a well balanced meta.

    Right now the (potentially) offending decks all run cantrip, FoW, and DRS. One of those cards strongly pushes the overabundant play-style, the others do not.



    Agreed - at this time.
    Right now MTGTop8 has (non-elf) DRS decks at 36%. Considering the "tempo" versions are borderline midrange, that's a lot more than ideal.

    To put it in context, if 36% of the meta was combo that would be okay. But if that 36% where all Storm variations (Ruby, ANT, TES, High-Tide, Solidarity, and SI), that would be a lot uglier. Back to the midrange plague, if the meta share grows, and holds, I will advocate a ban. I would hate to see the top-16 at Birmingham become anything close to representative of the meta-game.
    So just to clarify (though I assume you knew what I meant), my point about Deathrite is that the decks that people are complaining about that have that creature are only blue decks. Actually, probably only 2, Czech Pile and Grixis Delver. I haven't seen BUG Delver post a ton of good results lately.

    Hm....I would personally like more combo decks in the meta. I find it more interesting when you could face Storm or Sneak show. Right now, where I play it's only really Reanimator. One problem IMHO is the lack of good combo cards being printed and the 2nd being power creep of creatures. Once upon a time Tarmogoyf and Goblin Lackey were seen as oppressive.

    I would agree Deathrite does push more than Force and cantrips into making a deck builder decide to play midrange. But if the metric that people are using as an issue (% of the meta), than it's just going to be another blue variant. Canadian Threshold would be my guess. Grixis I still think is a better deck than Threshold, although getting my lands wasted, my fetches Stifled and staring down a Goose with a Plow in hand sucks.

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