View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #20701
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It’s a meta for cultured people from civilized society for sure
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goin Aggro View Post
    Ugh, there he goes again, talking about the girlfriend. We get it dude.

  2. #20702

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Sure, I'm the one cheating by using the clock as a weapon but have you considered that I couldn't cheat you if you just didn't play to begin with?
    These are different considerations - I was responding to a poster who said it "takes forever for Miracles to kill them," similar to how the Eggs combo takes a while to resolve. The point is, as long as your opponent is taking meaningful game actions at a reasonable pace, it doesn't matter how many relevant game actions you take in between - it's not slow playing, and it's not cheating. You might not like, it, sure, but that doesn't matter.

    The point about concessions is that, if you know you're going to lose, but know it will take a while, the person holding you hostage is you, not your Eggs or Miracles or whatever opponent. If you're wasting time trying to make a point about "making them have it" or whatever when your out is the miniscule chance they will mess up, it's on you.

    Slow play, on the other hand, is a penalty, and if they're taking too long thinking about game actions, by all means, call a judge; don't just ban cards because of some specious "logistical" argument, like they did for top and second sunrise. (I understand Miracles may have been too strong and needed a ban anyway, but the point is that they added a line about "tournament logistics" that was both unnecessary and false.)

  3. #20703

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    These are different considerations - I was responding to a poster who said it "takes forever for Miracles to kill them," similar to how the Eggs combo takes a while to resolve. The point is, as long as your opponent is taking meaningful game actions at a reasonable pace, it doesn't matter how many relevant game actions you take in between - it's not slow playing, and it's not cheating. You might not like, it, sure, but that doesn't matter.

    The point about concessions is that, if you know you're going to lose, but know it will take a while, the person holding you hostage is you, not your Eggs or Miracles or whatever opponent. If you're wasting time trying to make a point about "making them have it" or whatever when your out is the miniscule chance they will mess up, it's on you.

    Slow play, on the other hand, is a penalty, and if they're taking too long thinking about game actions, by all means, call a judge; don't just ban cards because of some specious "logistical" argument, like they did for top and second sunrise. (I understand Miracles may have been too strong and needed a ban anyway, but the point is that they added a line about "tournament logistics" that was both unnecessary and false.)
    You are aware that there's a difference between slow play and stalling right? Like playing slow is a warning and playing to the clock is an explicit disqualification?

  4. #20704

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    You are aware that there's a difference between slow play and stalling right? Like playing slow is a warning and playing to the clock is an explicit disqualification?
    Yes, that was the point of my post. Playing decks that take a long time to win are not slow play or stalling. Those penalties are independent of deck choice. You could slow play or stall with Red Deck Wins, or you could do it with Miracles, or any deck.

    The poster I was responding to before you objected to those decks taking a long time to win, not that they were eating up too much clock time/causing tournaments to run long. If someone is playing too slowly, call a judge.

  5. #20705

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    Yes, that was the point of my post. Playing decks that take a long time to win are not slow play or stalling. Those penalties are independent of deck choice. You could slow play or stall with Red Deck Wins, or you could do it with Miracles, or any deck.
    Except one of those decks has the strategy built into it and the other will lose if you try it.
    The poster I was responding to before you objected to those decks taking a long time to win, not that they were eating up too much clock time/causing tournaments to run long. If someone is playing too slowly, call a judge.
    I'll take "things that mean the same thing" for 200, Alec.

  6. #20706
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The flavor of Miracles locally is on Mentor, and if you think it takes a long time to win once they establish Mentor you've never played against it. It's 2 turns usually, 3 max. The cantrip engine gets absurd, it's storm-like in its ability to execute.

    Also, and I may be in the minority, but I've never gone to time against a Miracles player. I'm always either on a slow grindy mess of a tier 5 deck like Nic Fit/Rock, some janky shit, or Turbo Depths. Local Miracles players have been the epitome of sportsmanship, taking a normal amount of time to make decisions and rarely go to time even in the mirrors.
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  7. #20707
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    The flavor of Miracles locally is on Mentor, and if you think it takes a long time to win once they establish Mentor you've never played against it. It's 2 turns usually, 3 max. The cantrip engine gets absurd, it's storm-like in its ability to execute.

    Also, and I may be in the minority, but I've never gone to time against a Miracles player. I'm always either on a slow grindy mess of a tier 5 deck like Nic Fit/Rock, some janky shit, or Turbo Depths. Local Miracles players have been the epitome of sportsmanship, taking a normal amount of time to make decisions and rarely go to time even in the mirrors.
    Lucky. Locally ours were fine for the most part. Regionally though there was a guy known as GSMM (glacially slow miracles man), and every event, every round he was in time. I could be wrong, but I think the was a facebook post on a local group where he basically admitted he would play slowly when he was ahead (keep in mind he was already slow even when behind). I'm glad top is gone just so these types of grinder barnacle turds aren't as attracted to the format
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    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
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    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  8. #20708

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Except one of those decks has the strategy built into it and the other will lose if you try it.

    I'll take "things that mean the same thing" for 200, Alec.
    They don't mean the same thing.

    Slow play has a defined rules meaning - that is, taking too long to make a decision that meaningfully affects the board state. It does not mean, "a deck that requires many turns to win," or even, "a deck that requires one long turn to win."

    For example, you could perseverate for several minutes about whether your all-in attack with Sligh is a good idea. That would be slow play, and could elicit a judge call and potentially a penalty if it continues.

    By contrast, you could perform several top activations, shuffles, and cantrips each turn trying to find your Entreat the Angels. Even if that takes twenty turns to do and your opponent can't do anything because they're locked out by counterbalance, it's not slow play, because you are making meaningful decisions and each of those decisions takes a reasonable amount of time.

    Slow play is strategy-independent, and doesn't depend on whether you're winning or losing - you can slow play when you are losing, too.

    For Stalling, it matters if the match clock ending will give you some advantage.

  9. #20709
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Lucky. Locally ours were fine for the most part. Regionally though there was a guy known as GSMM (glacially slow miracles man), and every event, every round he was in time. I could be wrong, but I think the was a facebook post on a local group where he basically admitted he would play slowly when he was ahead (keep in mind he was already slow even when behind). I'm glad top is gone just so these types of grinder barnacle turds aren't as attracted to the format
    I wouldn't hesitate to call a judge, and I've made that clear to slow players before. In one situation during a tournament, I figured out how to weasel g1 playing Rock against Esper Deathblade. I had played against him before, and even with fast decks he was slow. So after g1, I just slooooooowed right down to his pace. I'm happy to take a round 1-0, no problem. It grated the whole time though, and it certainly isn't ideal in anything 6+ rounds. If slow play is the only real worry in the current environment, I'll take it. I don't see any cards worthy of banning (grinder barnacle turds, please don't mention Brainstorm...)

    Grinder Barnacle Turd is my new favorite insult.
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  10. #20710

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    They don't mean the same thing.

    Slow play has a defined rules meaning - that is, taking too long to make a decision that meaningfully affects the board state. It does not mean, "a deck that requires many turns to win," or even, "a deck that requires one long turn to win."

    For example, you could perseverate for several minutes about whether your all-in attack with Sligh is a good idea. That would be slow play, and could elicit a judge call and potentially a penalty if it continues.

    By contrast, you could perform several top activations, shuffles, and cantrips each turn trying to find your Entreat the Angels. Even if that takes twenty turns to do and your opponent can't do anything because they're locked out by counterbalance, it's not slow play, because you are making meaningful decisions and each of those decisions takes a reasonable amount of time.

    Slow play is strategy-independent, and doesn't depend on whether you're winning or losing - you can slow play when you are losing, too.

    For Stalling, it matters if the match clock ending will give you some advantage.
    Turn on your monitor.

  11. #20711
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    after g1, I just slooooooowed right down to his pace. I'm happy to take a round 1-0, no problem
    Congratulations, you just admitted cheating.
    Infraction procedure guide (October 2018)
    3.3 Tournament Error — Slow Play (Sanction: Warning)
    Definition: A player takes longer than is reasonably required to complete game actions. If a judge believes a player is intentionally playing slowly to take advantage of a time limit, the infraction is Unsporting Conduct — Stalling (Sanction: Disqualification)

  12. #20712

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    Congratulations, you just admitted cheating.
    Infraction procedure guide (October 2018)
    3.3 Tournament Error — Slow Play (Sanction: Warning)
    Definition: A player takes longer than is reasonably required to complete game actions. If a judge believes a player is intentionally playing slowly to take advantage of a time limit, the infraction is Unsporting Conduct — Stalling (Sanction: Disqualification)
    The bit about winning 1-0 is a clear reference to the clock which actually makes it 4.7 Unsportsmanlike Conduct, Stalling

  13. #20713
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    Congratulations, you just admitted cheating.
    Infraction procedure guide (October 2018)
    3.3 Tournament Error — Slow Play (Sanction: Warning)
    Definition: A player takes longer than is reasonably required to complete game actions. If a judge believes a player is intentionally playing slowly to take advantage of a time limit, the infraction is Unsporting Conduct — Stalling (Sanction: Disqualification)
    {paraphrased}...slowed right down to his pace...
    Yes, it was definitely wrong to do so. Even with only 5 minutes left in the round (after g1) I should have made every effort to play at a reasonable, even a fast pace, regardless of what my opponent was doing. I admit fault, no question. After grinding out a 45 minute game (edit: correction, rounds were 50 minutes) that should have been 20 minutes, I was salty. Not an excuse, just a show of human weakness and a spiteful desire for manufactured karma.

    It's not quite so clear cut, even in hindsight. When I say I slowed down, it means I wasn't playing with 10-20 seconds of time with each action. I took maybe an extra 10 seconds with each play. I was playing to *not lose* in game 2, with 5 minutes left on the clock, fairly well knowing I would likely take the round 1-0. Did this mean I was playing differently than I would have with 20 minutes left? Yes, I was.

    Honestly, this is incredibly informative for me. Here I am thinking my opponent is being a turd for slow play (deliberate slow play) and I didn't even question myself for matching his behavior. As long as I've been playing magic, I've never thought that specific rules of slow play were that detailed. Live and learn, believe it or not I appreciate the feedback and clarification of rules.

    EDIT: Just so I'm clear, if my opponent is playing slowly I should 100% call a judge? And not only that, I am responsible for reminding my opponent to play faster? I don't want to do this again, the last thing I want is to pick up bad behavior (cheating.)

    EDIT #2:
    For Stalling, it matters if the match clock ending will give you some advantage.
    Got it. I was cheating, pretty clear.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  14. #20714
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    They don't mean the same thing.

    Slow play has a defined rules meaning - that is, taking too long to make a decision that meaningfully affects the board state. It does not mean, "a deck that requires many turns to win," or even, "a deck that requires one long turn to win."

    For example, you could perseverate for several minutes about whether your all-in attack with Sligh is a good idea. That would be slow play, and could elicit a judge call and potentially a penalty if it continues.

    By contrast, you could perform several top activations, shuffles, and cantrips each turn trying to find your Entreat the Angels. Even if that takes twenty turns to do and your opponent can't do anything because they're locked out by counterbalance, it's not slow play, because you are making meaningful decisions and each of those decisions takes a reasonable amount of time.

    Slow play is strategy-independent, and doesn't depend on whether you're winning or losing - you can slow play when you are losing, too.

    For Stalling, it matters if the match clock ending will give you some advantage.
    What about 2 minute Brainstorm resolutions? What about responding to my Tarmogoyf with 2 minutes of postulating and shuffling cards in hand? Not saying I wasn't wrong, I just didn't realize my opponent was actually cheating, and I didn't realize me responding in kind was also cheating.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  15. #20715
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I had an experience against a Miracles player a few years back that opened my eyes to calling a Judge.

    It was game 3 and so there wasn't much time left anyway, and the guy was playing okay to kinda slow anyways, doing 5-6 shuffles of their deck after every fetch instead of my 3-4, shuffling my deck as well after every fetch instead of cutting. But nothing clear cut egregious enough to snap call a judge. Enough to annoy for sure though. But he's playing to win, took a while to kill me game 1, I turn it around quickly game 2 and so here we are with the 10 minutes left.

    After the initial volleys he's on the back foot and I only need a few good draw steps to put him in the downward spiral. Then it begins. An excruciating line of play that involves him looking at the clock, resolving a Ponder, thinking, looking at the clock, thinking, shuffling for Ponder, drawing, thinking, looking at the clock, playing a fetch land, cracking the fetch land, shuffling, looking at the clock, playing another Ponder; on and on it went.

    There was no one thing that he did that could be called out in my mind. I suspected he was playing to draw but he did have a few outs that could have turned the game around. But every Ponder was thinking time followed by a shuffle, then somehow another shuffle effect, then SCM into Ponder again. Every shuffle effect was like 40 seconds, but they were long the whole match, so it wasn't anything special now. And I didn't want to be the asshole to tell him to speed up only now that it would mean he'd lose faster. Or blindside him with a Judge call for something he's not doing.

    But yeah in hindsight none of that matters. We drew and I was salty the whole day. Maybe still even now. But that's something I'll never let happen again. If I think you're playing the clock, I'll invite some Judges to stand around and watch us.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  16. #20716

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    I had an experience against a Miracles player a few years back that opened my eyes to calling a Judge.

    It was game 3 and so there wasn't much time left anyway, and the guy was playing okay to kinda slow anyways, doing 5-6 shuffles of their deck after every fetch instead of my 3-4, shuffling my deck as well after every fetch instead of cutting. But nothing clear cut egregious enough to snap call a judge. Enough to annoy for sure though. But he's playing to win, took a while to kill me game 1, I turn it around quickly game 2 and so here we are with the 10 minutes left.

    After the initial volleys he's on the back foot and I only need a few good draw steps to put him in the downward spiral. Then it begins. An excruciating line of play that involves him looking at the clock, resolving a Ponder, thinking, looking at the clock, thinking, shuffling for Ponder, drawing, thinking, looking at the clock, playing a fetch land, cracking the fetch land, shuffling, looking at the clock, playing another Ponder; on and on it went.

    There was no one thing that he did that could be called out in my mind. I suspected he was playing to draw but he did have a few outs that could have turned the game around. But every Ponder was thinking time followed by a shuffle, then somehow another shuffle effect, then SCM into Ponder again. Every shuffle effect was like 40 seconds, but they were long the whole match, so it wasn't anything special now. And I didn't want to be the asshole to tell him to speed up only now that it would mean he'd lose faster. Or blindside him with a Judge call for something he's not doing.

    But yeah in hindsight none of that matters. We drew and I was salty the whole day. Maybe still even now. But that's something I'll never let happen again. If I think you're playing the clock, I'll invite some Judges to stand around and watch us.
    Here’s the thing, though: by calling a judge, you’re not being an asshole, and you’re not even necessarily making an accusation. You’re asking a third party to make that call, and a third party who is habilitated and trained to make that call to boot. Be polite about it, point out you want to make sure because there is little time left on the clock if you have to, but I think people don’t use judges enough for fear of looking bad too much when it comes to slow play.

  17. #20717
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfy View Post
    Here’s the thing, though: by calling a judge, you’re not being an asshole, and you’re not even necessarily making an accusation. You’re asking a third party to make that call, and a third party who is habilitated and trained to make that call to boot. Be polite about it, point out you want to make sure because there is little time left on the clock if you have to, but I think people don’t use judges enough for fear of looking bad too much when it comes to slow play.
    That's exactly it. The auspice that we're all having a good time, then suddenly there's a Judge call, no difference then shouting J'accuse! Ruins any goodwill that might have been.
    But that's all hogwash, because the alternative is shady people getting away with shady play.
    It was a mistake I made once so I'll never have to make it again.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  18. #20718

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post

    EDIT: Just so I'm clear, if my opponent is playing slowly I should 100% call a judge? And not only that, I am responsible for reminding my opponent to play faster?
    I don’t think there can be circumstances under which you could end in trouble for not having reminded your opponent to pick up the pace, but it’s certainly good form to tell them yourself once before calling a judge. But as I said above, if you have an issue with a player playing too slowly, yes, absolutely, do not hesitate, call a judge. It’s the only proper way to solve the problem if your opponent does not react after you engaged with them once, and judges do take slow play seriously.
    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    I'll take "things that mean the same thing" for 200, Alec.

  19. #20719
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    That's exactly it. The auspice that we're all having a good time, then suddenly there's a Judge call, no difference then shouting J'accuse! Ruins any goodwill that might have been.
    But that's all hogwash, because the alternative is shady people getting away with shady play.
    It was a mistake I made once so I'll never have to make it again.
    My pro tip. Call a Judge, and tell him you need to talk to them away from the table, bring your hand with you and show it to them as if asking about a tard interaction, while you tell them you want them to watch your opponent for slow play. I once had a judge pull out their phone as if checking oracle while getting clarifying information on why I thought my OP was slowplaying. Then you don't look like an asshole to your opponent if you're worried about that, but at the same time you get youc judge review.

  20. #20720

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    That's exactly it. The auspice that we're all having a good time, then suddenly there's a Judge call, no difference then shouting J'accuse! Ruins any goodwill that might have been.
    But that's all hogwash, because the alternative is shady people getting away with shady play.
    It was a mistake I made once so I'll never have to make it again.
    I completely understand the “goodwill” bit. I haven’t played paper in a while, but when I did, I always put on my “stern face” on before every game, not trying to be an asshole, but much colder than I am socially, more like my professional behavior, and certainly no pre-game banter. I did it on purpose because it made it much more easier when I had to point out mistakes and of course, calling judges (and in reverse, I could just look unphazed when I got a judge called on me for a mistake instead of looking sheepish).

    It’s not at all who I am, and it made the games and the interactions less enjoyable. But I found it much easier to say “no” if someone asked me to take a play back if they made a mistake or something like that than if we started with jokes and smiles. Role playing and generally looking cold if not mean was the only way I could manage some of the shady tactics used in competitions.
    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    I'll take "things that mean the same thing" for 200, Alec.

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