View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #20381

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    ...it really wouldn't be though. Wild nacatl is a running joke in this thread for a reason and it's not even modern viable. Adding the anti cantrip text to make it situationally better might make some people interested in zoo again (which is the goal right?) but miracles/stoneblade/sneak and skill would certainly still be better decks.
    Nacatl isn't played because Naya colors are not good; not because the card itself is underpowered. If it was BUG/Grixis/RUG colors I'm sure it would be one of the most played threats for the tempo decks.

  2. #20382
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    I can't keep up with these rocket powered goalposts.
    Where did I lost you? I was hinting that mass-bans don't present a lasting "fix" and delivered an example of 1) a format pretty much ruined for the playerbase due to a mass ban, which you claimed lacks the follow-up bans, except that history proves, that 2) more was banned, because (unsurprisingly) there is always a best deck. Being a bit less cryptic about what you want from me would be really helpful, as it's hard to adress questions consisting of "so?".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
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  3. #20383
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Where did I lost you? I was hinting that mass-bans don't present a lasting "fix" and delivered an example of 1) a format pretty much ruined for the playerbase due to a mass ban, which you claimed lacks the follow-up bans, except that history proves, that 2) more was banned, because (unsurprisingly) there is always a best deck. Being a bit less cryptic about what you want from me would be really helpful, as it's hard to adress questions consisting of "so?".
    He just wants to find a way to make Chalice the best card in the format (it's not; again, Brainstorm's obviously not either), and he's not interested in entertaining the idea that you'd have to cut half the viable decks out of Legacy to make that happen.

    FourDogs, it sounds like you're deliberately disregarding what he's saying regardless of its veracity.
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  4. #20384
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    He just wants to find a way to make Chalice the best card in the format (it's not; again, Brainstorm's obviously not either), and he's not interested in entertaining the idea that you'd have to cut half the viable decks out of Legacy to make that happen.
    The problem with the rabbithole of bannings is that you remove more and more viable decks while being unable to fix the problem of "best deck" and complaints about it anyways.

    WotC tried both Variants of banning approaches, with just chopping in Legacy whatever floats on top of the cantrip shell, no matter if it was TC, DTT, SDT, DRS or else; and in vintage with a mass banning. Neither case solved the "best deck" issue and both cases resulted in further bans anyways.

    So the question is, if we just stick with the cantrip shell as the clear best option and keep just killing the top card every 1-2 years, ban every cardselection and anti-RNG mechanic until Eldrazi Aggro (or the like) become a problem itsel or, just remove Brainstorm and with it the tempo supertype and many combo subtypes to create an even more homgenous metagame.

    I see no option which wields a desireable outcome in any case. My personal best-case-scenario of WotC establishing SEVERAL EQUALLY COMPEDITIVE cores is a pipe deam anyways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

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  5. #20385
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    i think the main approach here for wotc would be printing cards that have synergies, but aren't very good on their own. eldrazi is a good example of this. even though it's not the most interesting deck, it's nice to see a chalice deck that has some consistency.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I'm kind of diggin' the new 'fair' approach to dredge they are attempting in the new set. They brought back Narco, they added a dredgy Lava Spike, and surveil as a mechanic seems really cool (basically a new keyword for an already existing effect.) The filtering while adding graveyard synergy seems very promising. None of this really has an impact on Legacy, but it shows that even formerly 'bad' mechanics (dredge) aren't off-limits to innovation from a design perspective. Combine that with some fairly predictable legacy playables like Assassin's Trophy and it seems that Wotc might, might, finally have taken their thumb out of their ass. Even Unmoored Ego is a fairly direct answer to Tron lands in modern without banning them (not that Tron is worthy of a ban.) Assassin's Trophy also hits problematic lands efficiently.

    I was skeptical of the DRS ban, but overall it seems like a fairly decent effect on the format. Adding relevant new cards to the mix really helps, in my opinion. I wish they would have given us some unbans as well, but we'll see if they pull the trigger at the next ban announcement on those.
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  7. #20387

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    I'm in total agreement, but I'm wondering how much of a difference it would actually make to replace Brainstorm with the next-best cantrip.
    I am really surprised by this perspective given that I know you play/have played Storm.

    Brainstorm is head and shoulders above all the other cantrips; it just does so many more things. Fixes bad draws, is instant speed against discard, lets you put back one-ofs, can get you multiple distinct cards at once as opposed to a single specific card, sets up the top of your deck if that's relevant, etc, etc.

    Getting rid of brainstorm might be enough to put me off ANT, and that would be a huge bummer (though a little while ago I bought cradles so I could have Elves and still play engine combo in case they banned Probe...figured they'd do Deathrite or Probe but not both, look where that got me....) I don't think they should ban brainstorm because the card is just so sweet and fun to play with, but I think it would be way more reasonable if it were "draw two, put back one" - could still set up terminus and get your Ad Nauseam or Tendrils back in your deck, but would "unmulligan" considerably less.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Edit: I'll repeat that I think a 2/2 creature with cost WG and hexproof and an effect saying that players can only draw one card per turn would do the trick.
    Yes, that's what Magic needs - more miserable, tutorable, binary hatebears...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bithlord View Post
    {R/G}{R/G}
    hexproof.
    2/1
    When a player draws a card, other than the first card of their draw step, ~ deals 2 damage to that player.
    I actually like this, because it applies pressure without being just a binary switch of, "oh, now your deck doesn't work at all" like many of the white hatebears/chalice. I do think hexproof is a really, really dumb mechanic, though.

    Also, there are other options against turn one combo that are color ambivalent, like the leylines/mindbreak trap/surgical/faerie macabre/etc; I don't think just straight up printing force in other colors makes sense, and it would muddy the color pie. I'm not saying there aren't opportunities to print more early interaction for other colors, but there's no reason it has t be pitch counterspells.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    it's nice to see a chalice deck that has some consistency.
    ....is it, though?




    (no, those decks are boring and ask nothing of their pilots.)

  8. #20388

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    He just wants to find a way to make Chalice the best card in the format (it's not; again, Brainstorm's obviously not either), and he's not interested in entertaining the idea that you'd have to cut half the viable decks out of Legacy to make that happen.

    FourDogs, it sounds like you're deliberately disregarding what he's saying regardless of its veracity.
    Well, I'm sure it looks like that to you a guy who thinks I want Chalice to be good.

  9. #20389
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    I am really surprised by this perspective given that I know you play/have played Storm.

    Brainstorm is head and shoulders above all the other cantrips; it just does so many more things. Fixes bad draws, is instant speed against discard, lets you put back one-ofs, can get you multiple distinct cards at once as opposed to a single specific card, sets up the top of your deck if that's relevant, etc, etc.

    Getting rid of brainstorm might be enough to put me off ANT, and that would be a huge bummer.
    I think out of the many combo decks in Legacy, AnTs core is the one most likely to survive without Brainstorm, due to how the deck core is constructed.
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  10. #20390
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    ....is it, though?
    Good God yes. It's good to have something running around attacking the meta the way it does. Chalice, Choke (Though Plug has vanished.) and Moon are all important cards.
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  11. #20391

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    ... I don't think just straight up printing force in other colors makes sense, and it would muddy the color pie. I'm not saying there aren't opportunities to print more early interaction for other colors, but there's no reason it has t be pitch counterspells. ...
    I still want to see a version of Misdirection in red.

  12. #20392
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Edit: I'll repeat that I think a 2/2 creature with cost WG and hexproof and an effect saying that players can only draw one card per turn would do the trick.
    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    Yes, that's what Magic needs - more miserable, tutorable, binary hatebears...
    You're entitled to not like hatebears, but do you really think any hatebears are making the format miserable? In my view, hatebears allow permanent based strategies to interact with spell based strategies. And if they are good enough they force spell based decks to play some answers to them. This makes for more interactive games and a more varied metagame, not less. If spell-based decks get to ignore permanents, that makes for more miserable games in my view..

    Edit: dividing decks into spell-based vs permanent based decks is an oversimplification, I don't define them because I'm guessing the general idea is clear anyway. Hope that is fine, or else we shall discuss!

    Edit2: I can see why you wouldn't want hatebears to have shroud though, and that is perfectly reasonable..

  13. #20393
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I think out of the many combo decks in Legacy, AnTs core is the one most likely to survive without Brainstorm, due to how the deck core is constructed.
    Dark Ritual wins games.

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    I still want to see a version of Misdirection in red.
    That would be awesome. Actually, why HAVEN'T they done that?

    FourDogs, I realize I was being a bit trashed and indecorous in my previous post. Sorry about that.

    EDIT: The discussion of hatebears is interesting to me. I agree that it would be cool to see more of them in slightly different colors, but that raises some issues in red and black because Rituals are real.

    One thing I've noticed is that of all the lockpieces Wizards has printed over the past few years, few of them are strong enough to replace tools that are already there in their colors. But doubtless, there will come a time that someone figures out how to jam all of them into a viable 60, and printing more would only hasten that. I don't necessarily think that would be bad for the format, but I can't say I'd be happy to see it given that I'm a combo junkie. Designing hatebears is tough because it's difficult to make them viable but not totally patently busted.

    I'd also like to mention that one of Legacy's strengths (compared to every format except maybe Commander) is that combo is a robust supertype in the format, and I don't think I'd be the only person to seriously consider cashing out if that were to change. I'll Burn 'em out as readily as the next guy, but there's something special about decks that don't do what Magic decks are supposed to do.
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  14. #20394

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    I actually like this, because it applies pressure without being just a binary switch of, "oh, now your deck doesn't work at all" like many of the white hatebears/chalice. I do think hexproof is a really, really dumb mechanic, though.
    I'd be all about shroud instead. But, WotC in their "infinite" wisdom, has decreed that mechanics with both upsides and downsides are "not fun", and therefore are not allowed.

    I'm a big fan of taxing things, rather than prohibiting them. Because, like you noted, it doesn't turn off a deck, just makes it weaker.

  15. #20395
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    I still want to see a version of Misdirection in red.
    Ricochet Trap is about as close as we have now...and it has to be triggered by blue, and still costs R to cast. It's an underutilized gem, but I get what you mean. We need pitch cards like Force of Will that aren't terrible, and Misdirection effects fit a lot better in red.
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  16. #20396

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I think out of the many combo decks in Legacy, AnTs core is the one most likely to survive without Brainstorm, due to how the deck core is constructed.
    I'm sure some version of the deck would still be playable, but I think it would be much, much worse. I have won so many games I had no business winning because a topdecked brainstorm turned my hand of a ritual and three bricks into a game-winning line that it's hard to believe that losing the "hand reconstruction" effect wouldn't severely weaken the deck.

    Wouldn't something like SnT, where you just have to find busted pokemon A + cheaty enabler B just be better at that point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Good God yes. It's good to have something running around attacking the meta the way it does. Chalice, Choke and Moon are all important cards.
    So, I don't dispute that cards like Chalice, Choke, and Moon are important regulatory valves to particular excesses, but I do dispute that their viability is something "good to see."

    Stompy decks make for some of the absolute most binary, random, boring "games" (if you can call them that) of magic you can get, and then after you randomly lose to them having Chalice into TKS two games in a row, they go ahead and lose several rounds after knocking you out because they didn't get the sol land into dumb lock piece draw, so they just feel like random pairings landmines.

    I don't think they need to be banned or anything, but if I never got paired against a Chalice deck again in Legacy, it would be too soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    I still want to see a version of Misdirection in red.
    This actually sounds sweet.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    You're entitled to not like hatebears, but do you really think any hatebears are making the format miserable? In my view, hatebears allow permanent based strategies to interact with spell based strategies. And if they are good enough they force spell based decks to play some answers to them. This makes for more interactive games and a more varied metagame, not less. If spell-based decks get to ignore permanents, that makes for more miserable games in my view.
    I actually don't really disagree with this all that much, it just feels like they're constantly printing new idiots that just make it impossible to do anything interesting. I get that duder decks need a way to interact with combo, but why are they all these functional gates where it's either:

    1. Don't draw Thalia/Teeg/Canonist, etc, get run over.
    2. Draw one, opponents deck is now a ham sandwich.

    For instance, they're never gonna print, like:

    1U

    At the beginning of your upkeep, each of your opponents mills two.

    Creatures can't attack.


    Or:

    1B

    All creatures get -2/-2.


    That's what cards like Thalia or Teeg feel like to combo decks, if you were a creature deck. The second one doesn't even attack! Still never seeing the light of day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Dark Ritual wins games.
    YASSS

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    I'll Burn 'em out as readily as the next guy
    OH GOD VOMIT REACT

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    but there's something special about decks that don't do what Magic decks are supposed to do.
    This is what makes me want to play magic.

  17. #20397
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    I don't think they need to be banned or anything, but if I never got paired against a Chalice deck again in Legacy, it would be too soon.
    Want a game? I got Stax ready to go and it's really fun. It's quite an active deck, well, when it doesn't self distruct.
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  18. #20398
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    @Taconaut: I see, I wouldn't want to push combo decks out of the format or bring them too much disadvantage. I imagine a hexproof, or shrouded, card draw preventing hatebear would often be ignored by combo decks as they can win right through him and in addition both Ponder, Preordain, Intuition and Impulse work relatively well through it, while combo decks can, and often do, play sweepers that would remove it - and both Omnishow (splashing red) and TES have maindeck wishes that can find removal, sweepers, for it. It would be more relevant vs the fair decks that depend on spot removal to get rid of opposing creatures, these decks are not threatened much by Spirit of the Labyrinth and they could still Daze, FoW or just race the hexproof/shrouded hatebear with their Delvers or Gurmags or Mentors or whatever. And they can play edict effects and sweepers. I can see how many would object to the printing of such a powerful (I'm not sure how powerful it would be) hatebear but I think it perhaps might help some green, nonblue decks get on more even ground with the blue ones. And that alone would open up for other decks that would be good vs these green decks (like the combo decks, perhaps, and even other strategies). Well, this is just what I imagine and probably would be way off..

  19. #20399

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Combine that with some fairly predictable legacy playables like Assassin's Trophy and it seems that Wotc might, might, finally have taken their thumb out of their ass. Even Unmoored Ego is a fairly direct answer to Tron lands in modern without banning them (not that Tron is worthy of a ban.) Assassin's Trophy also hits problematic lands efficiently.
    Field of Ruin, Damping Sphere, Alpine Moon, Assassin's Trophy, and now this. If Wizards is this intent on hurting Tron (even though it's never actually been the best deck in Modern), it'd be nice if they'd actually toss some hate towards the decks that are consistently outperforming it. When are we going to get an Engineered Plague reprint as anti-Humans tech already?

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    Field of Ruin, Damping Sphere, Alpine Moon, Assassin's Trophy, and now this. If Wizards is this intent on hurting Tron (even though it's never actually been the best deck in Modern), it'd be nice if they'd actually toss some hate towards the decks that are consistently outperforming it. When are we going to get an Engineered Plague reprint as anti-Humans tech already?
    Just reprinting EE so Modern players could buy it would really help.
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