View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #20161

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cave View Post
    Yeah, in retrospective that was kinda silly.
    3. Realize that Spiral Tide is the most successful version of High Tide deck ever played in legacy
    4. Realize that every other high tide deck that doesn't play a draw7 hasn't put up one decent legacy result in the last decade
    5. Realize that however good Frantic Search may be, it is still an inferior card to Time Spiral because it draws less and produces less mana.
    Holy crap and I was told I make bold claims. Get your head out of the sand dude. Solidarity was t1 alongside Thresh and Goblins, to there goes point #3. #4 you hit right, and point #5 and is just what you said in your last 3 posts explaining why. There are loads of reason you could not want to run Spiral Tide, among them that it sucks resolving High Tide+a d7 for your opponent, another being Teeg. You would be amazed how strong Ideas Unbound is. Predict could be run now that Legacy players know how strong it is in conjuction with BS+Ponder, and Snapcaster Mages could be played over Cloud of Faeries to recycle anything.

    Be a little more open minded.

  2. #20162

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanti View Post
    Holy crap and I was told I make bold claims. Get your head out of the sand dude. Solidarity was t1 alongside Thresh and Goblins, to there goes point #3.
    So being tier1 twelve years ago makes solidarity more successful than Spiral Tide? Holy crap you make bold claims, and there goes your irony.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanti View Post
    There are loads of reason you could not want to run Spiral Tide, among them that it sucks resolving High Tide+a d7 for your opponent, another being Teeg.
    Gaddock Teeg is irrelevant, to be fair. It's a hate card played in Maverick (at the moment a non-meta deck) and elves (which is a bad matchup regardless of Teeg because they have other stuff, like double therapy or t2 order-ruric).
    As for them drawing seven, i know it's bad but in the end it is not that bad: sometimes it doesn't even matter, and when it does, our deck is one of the best when it comes to fight on the stack. Drawing seven allows us to have enough gas, and any competent spiral tide pilot knows you try to cast as few spirals as possible, but you need at least one to win.

    On the other hand, what i'm really biased against is fizzling. You cannot convince me that a high tide deck works better in the early turns, just because of how the combo works it's better to go off later, at least t3-4. Also, Merchant Scroll is one of the best cards in the deck (and no, I won't discuss this) and merchant scroll literally screams "t3 or later". To me, fighting on the stack to resolve a t3 high tide and then only having Frantic Search in hand screams "Land, Land, Fow, throw a tantrum and scoop"; on the other hand, fighting on the stack to resolve high tide and then having Time Spiral as last card in my hand smells of victory. We both draw7, but you know I have more gas and your 7 counterspells can't stop my stream of sorcery cantrips.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanti View Post
    You would be amazed how strong Ideas Unbound is. Predict could be run now that Legacy players know how strong it is in conjuction with BS+Ponder, and Snapcaster Mages could be played over Cloud of Faeries to recycle anything.

    Be a little more open minded.
    Ideas Unbound is so strong that it was played in two decks that died years ago. Its last result in a high tide deck dates back to early 2011. If Ideas Unbound needs Frantic Search to be playable, I might as well skip it and go for something more viable. Remember that people aren't playing meditate either because of too big drawbacks, let alone Ideas Unbound. Predict is good: in fact there are people (e.g. Mackan) having decent success with 3-4 md predict Spiral Tide. Snapcaster over Cloud can work, but not if you want to be able to go off turn2 as someone said.

    Concerning your last judgemental sentence, I think of myself as a fairly open minded person. However, I don't like to get overexcited about things that haven't happened (like FS getting unbanned) or unplayable cards getting playable just because of an unban.

  3. #20163

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I don't see anyone taking into account just how difficult it is to pilot in the discussion as to why it's not successful. In my opinion, that's the #1 reason why Spring Tide/Solidarity/Spiral Tide is as unsuccessful as it is in this format. Its correct lines aren't always obvious, or even possible to know until later/after. It also requires an immense amount of thought, which causes incorrect lines also.

  4. #20164
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    I don't see anyone taking into account just how difficult it is to pilot in the discussion as to why it's not successful. In my opinion, that's the #1 reason why Spring Tide/Solidarity/Spiral Tide is as unsuccessful as it is in this format. Its correct lines aren't always obvious, or even possible to know until later/after. It also requires an immense amount of thought, which causes incorrect lines also.
    The speed Feline would run though that deck would always amaze me. The fact that the last time she really tried to play it was when Dig was legal I think says more then peoples skill. The same argument was made for a long time about DDFT, but really we all know the deck was just bad right? We are admitting that yes?

    A hard deck to pilot that is very strong will get picked up, people will run it. Many a spike will talk for hours with others in a testing group about how to do what and when. If a deck is worth the effort people will put it in. High Tide is not worth that effort, its just not good enough.
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  5. #20165

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    The speed Feline would run though that deck would always amaze me. The fact that the last time she really tried to play it was when Dig was legal I think says more then peoples skill. The same argument was made for a long time about DDFT, but really we all know the deck was just bad right? We are admitting that yes?

    A hard deck to pilot that is very strong will get picked up, people will run it. Many a spike will talk for hours with others in a testing group about how to do what and when. If a deck is worth the effort people will put it in. High Tide is not worth that effort, its just not good enough.
    All correct. However, I wasn't arguing it is good enough, just that the main reason for its lack of success was that it was also a difficult deck to play when it was a high-tiered deck.

  6. #20166
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    The same argument was made for a long time about DDFT, but really we all know the deck was just bad right? We are admitting that yes?
    I mean I guess it could be both. I don't know any deck that had a ridiculous spreadsheet parsing every pile option for every situation. Bad or good, we can agree it was silly at least.
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  7. #20167
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Inconsistent is the word I would use. Solidarity, the instant-only version was especially inconsistent. And thank God! That shit was not fun to face when it had the goods. It could do stupid things like win during your attack step or Twincast your Hymn to Tourach twice before finally Remanding yours. And all this just took 15 minutes of you carefully watching and counting their spells, mana, etc. There was really little you could do to beat that deck most of the time. But there were also times where after all that, it would fail to do anything at all and then just pass priority back...after 15 minutes of masturbation. Annoying.
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  8. #20168

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    I don't see anyone taking into account just how difficult it is to pilot in the discussion as to why it's not successful. In my opinion, that's the #1 reason why Spring Tide/Solidarity/Spiral Tide is as unsuccessful as it is in this format. Its correct lines aren't always obvious, or even possible to know until later/after. It also requires an immense amount of thought, which causes incorrect lines also.
    I said that multiple times when comparing Omnitell to Spiral Tide. Resolving one spell, putting an overcosted enchantment into play and then laughing at your opponent is way easier than calculating stuff for minutes. That being said, I think people overestimate the deck's difficulty. I always found ANT was way harder to pilot, and I played that deck for quite a while too. The most difficult moments are beginning the combo a.k.a. resolving through permission and deciding what to do to prevent mana shortage after drawing your time spiral's 7: the rest is more or less autopilot.

    Edit: By the way, Dice_Box said something really clever there. High Tide is difficult and intriguing, just not worth playing. That's why many people like the deck but not many play it. Casting show and tell then slamming your d on the table is way easier and far more likely to be successful.

  9. #20169
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    All correct. However, I wasn't arguing it is good enough, just that the main reason for its lack of success was that it was also a difficult deck to play when it was a high-tiered deck.
    You and I are remembering the Naughties very differently. Me and my Goblins remember High Tide, we did not enjoy them.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  10. #20170

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    You and I are remembering the Naughties very differently. Me and my Goblins remember High Tide, we did not enjoy them.
    I'm sorry, I meant it's lack of success now in recent years, not then. I too remember it somewhat woefully, but I played storm (fetchland tendrils and ironically, DDFT) so it does sound like we had different experiences. At least I had Duresses and Chant, you had to race...

  11. #20171
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    C'mon Earthcraft!

    Let's untap some Enchanted Forests.

    Don't leave me hanging, WotC!

  12. #20172

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Frantic search ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
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  13. #20173

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    "Everything is better topless"

  14. #20174
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Hollow One / Vengevine decks have been making strong showings in both Vintage and Modern. Do folks here still think Survival is a safe unban in Legacy?

  15. #20175
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
    Hollow One / Vengevine decks have been making strong showings in both Vintage and Modern. Do folks here still think Survival is a safe unban in Legacy?
    No way. I think the format would devolve even further into degeneracy. The format is actually really fun ATM without a clear top deck, lets not fuck that up shall we?
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  16. #20176

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
    Hollow One / Vengevine decks have been making strong showings in both Vintage and Modern. Do folks here still think Survival is a safe unban in Legacy?
    Before drs ban I was all for survival, now there's no way.

  17. #20177
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    As a Survival supporter I think that a VV Hollow One deck would be pretty nuts. I'm not sure if it's TOO good, but I can now see how it only will get better. Especially now DRS is gone. Still would like to see the safer choices like earthcraft taken off though. Overall besides brainstorms continued dominance the format is actually better than it has been in awhile to me
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  18. #20178

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    As a Survival supporter I think that a VV Hollow One deck would be pretty nuts. I'm not sure if it's TOO good, but I can now see how it only will get better. Especially now DRS is gone. Still would like to see the safer choices like earthcraft taken off though. Overall besides brainstorms continued dominance the format is actually better than it has been in awhile to me
    I got into a debate here several months ago about why Survival would still be horrifically broken in Legacy. Deathrite being in the format would just mean Survival decks would play Deathrite. People acting as if DRS would keep Survival in check are flat out wrong.

    Earthcraft probably hasn't come off yet because Wizards doesn't want to remind people that the Reserved List exists. Plenty of more casual players out there who think Enchantress is a budget deck, but if Earthcraft gets unbanned, Sanctum and Earthcraft each hit $300 easy.

  19. #20179
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Earthcraft won’t maintain a price over $100, let alone $300.

    If someone wants to pay that much for an earthcraft, then good for the finance crowd I guess.
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  20. #20180

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    Earthcraft won’t maintain a price over $100, let alone $300.

    If someone wants to pay that much for an earthcraft, then good for the finance crowd I guess.
    Again, Earthcraft is a Reserved List card. It would spike super hard. Just because the card isn't good doesn't mean it won't hit that price for a short time at least.

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