View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #20201
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpcol07

    Good for some laughs

    To be fair, not many people actually knew about the combo going in (apparently the errata was tucked away in a column and unless you happen to read it, you wouldn’t know) so I’m curious how much of that is just from “well let’s see if people can beat it first”.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
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  2. #20202
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    It amuses me to no end now that the "Go play Modern" comment thrown around like an insult is actually really solid advice.
    Glad to hear that you finally listened, goodbye!

  3. #20203
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I love how the reaction is basicly "Ha! Fuck off then" and not "Well shit, Legacy might actually have an issue".

    You guys can feel smug, you can feel like you have won something, but l am going to do what makes me happy when I play my children's card game. But that doesn't change that the points are all valid, Legacy has slowly narrowed down to a one man band and it's getting stale. This is not a good thing. Because we can't start bleeding out the old guard and think this format can sustain itself with current trends.

    Legacy is looking like its on the same trajectory as Vintage was years ago. The format itself narrowing, the price climbing, the game slowly losing some of its magic. Gaining a founded reputation for being an old boys club. Seriously, how many new players have shown up regularly at your lgs compared to how many people have stopped coming? And that's not just a dissatisfaction argument, it's a reality granted by a aging population.

    I can think of a couple of locals that don't play weekly anymore because of kids. Kids they did not have when I started playing again and meet them. I can think of people who gave wanted to buy a home and have sold out, life taking precedence over luxury. I can think of people who have gotten jobs that needed to move (He was the best local player too, thankfully Miracles so no great loss) and suddenly less people then before.

    And who's coming to fill them in? No one. The Format had a barrier to entry that had climbed too high these past few years. I can remember Tabernacle climbing and people telling me "Well, I guess I'm not finishing lands". And I sure as hell was not about to celebrate that deminishmemt of our formats potential.

    That's not to say larger events like SCG won't fire, it's the kind of big deal we all tune in for, the kind of deal that guy with kids plans ahead for. Gets time off work and permission from the wife and goes to play. But that becomes the exception, not the rule.

    Don't celebrate when someone leaves, whatever the reason, we can't replace them. It's a matter of economics, the reserve list and life now. Personal dissatisfaction like my own is the most preventable loss we have and one we can ill afford.

    Edit:
    May wife actually made a good point. When people leave for life reasons, they are not always selling out. That means they keep their deck and don't induce downward pressure on prices. Another note I had not thought of.
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  4. #20204
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I can think of a couple of locals that don't play weekly anymore because of kids. Kids they did not have when I started playing again and meet them. I can think of people who gave wanted to buy a home and have sold out, life taking precedence over luxury. I can think of people who have gotten jobs that needed to move (He was the best local player too, thankfully Miracles so no great loss) and suddenly less people then before.
    I think some of them get kids and teach their kids to play, so that would be some slow regrowth of the game. And moving because of work may mean new players in your area too, we have one of them coming in any day now. Magic is a great way to make friends in a new area..

    There are two other ways to improve the status of the format, other than banning certain cards. One is printing hate for those cards that make the format more balanced, and the other is fake copies becoming good enough that people can get away with playing them at events (notice I don't express support for this development). Edit: mixing comments on quality and quantity of playing here.

  5. #20205
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    I think some of them get kids and teach their kids to play, so that would be some slow regrowth of the game.
    That sounds like a pipe dream in the age of eSports and mobile gaming. It's like trying to attract the generation League of Legends to classic boardgames. It does not work.

    MtG is a relic which refused to adapt to the modern day and instead of becoming more accessible and cheaper to be compeditive, it became ridiculous complex in terms of rules/mechanics and never managed to shift away from the tabletop roots. The train has left the station. Let it go.


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  6. #20206

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    That sounds like a pipe dream in the age of eSports and mobile gaming. It's like trying to attract the generation League of Legends to classic boardgames. It does not work.

    MtG is a relic which refused to adapt to the modern day and instead of becoming more accessible and cheaper to be compeditive, it became ridiculous complex in terms of rules/mechanics and never managed to shift away from the tabletop roots. The train has left the station. Let it go.


    P.S.

    In terms of metagame the most predictable of all cases happened: "If in doubt about the meta, just sleeve up the cantrip shell."
    Do you have kids? They'll want to do whatever you're doing.

  7. #20207
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Do you have kids? They'll want to do whatever you're doing.
    Maybe more importantly, if you have kids, you’ll want to have someone to play with and you’ll teach them.
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  8. #20208
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    We actually already had an example of a guy whose two kids seem to love playing, I think they play more modern and perhaps standard but they occasionally play legacy (and two others play at home with their kids). But yeah, these are not going to be enough, just saying there is some regrowth from these players leaving due to kids too..

  9. #20209

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Legacy is looking like its on the same trajectory as Vintage was years ago.
    Some people argue that vintage died because of the brainstorm/ponder restriction...

    I don't think anything is wrong with the format that can be fixed by bans. The major problem in paper legacy is $$. I think MTGO is great for the game, but i have a hard time seeing anyone start playing on mtgo before paper, and paper legacy is not accessible for most. I really wish there were a solution to "save" legacy and vintage, but i have kind of stopped hoping and just enjoy it for as long as i can.

    The reality is that the reserved list actually made all my beta power worthless to me, because i can't use it anymore. Soon my fbb duals will go the same way...

  10. #20210

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    So I'll chime in as someone who has really dug into legacy over the last ~2years now.

    Yes - there's an accessibility problem. 110%

    Yes - I'm finding my anecdotes match others anecdotes (legacy is largely relegated to folks with stable / high incomes, kids are a factor, and life is a factor - much more so than modern/vintage).

    However, what I'm finding is there's a different thing going on. You have dedicated folks (those who have kids and buy homes) that tend to stay in the game (Dice? IIRC you sold out of just about everything but Lands). They're not necessarily hitting weekly events (but most of these folks wouldnt be playing in weeklies regardless of format due to these factors).

    So you have a highly enfranchised group of players with less free time. To me this mirrors a lot of hobbies - those who are into tracking cars, or golf, or have a fishing boat, etc. Most of these people invest a lot of money into their hobbies, and dont necessarily get to take advantage of them weekly. It's simply a part of middle-agedness. I do get regular games in, but generally at home, with my closer friends, over a beer. It's not public, it's not showing up in WotC's numbers, but it fits in my life.

    I guess my thought process is - semi-frequent larger events + MTGO being the core "visible" public side of legacy isnt necessarily an illness; but rather a symptom of the specific demographic of those who are interested in the format

  11. #20211

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Dice_Box: Guys, blue is still dominant even after all these bans. Maybe, this is an issue we should address.

    Legacy Players: Lol, go play Modern idiot.

    Dice_Box: Okay.

    Meanwhile, GP Richmond only gets 842 players, the smallest Legacy GP since Denver January 2013. Hmmmmmm......

  12. #20212
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The standard portion of that GP was even smaller you realize, simply wasn’t a very large GP at all.

    For what it’s worth, ignoring the snide condescending comments that go with it, go play modern isn’t horrible advice. The aspects Dice (and others as well) want changed aren’t going to happen, WOTC admitted they balance the format for the people who play it and most people like the format with brainstorm in it.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goin Aggro View Post
    Ugh, there he goes again, talking about the girlfriend. We get it dude.

  13. #20213
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by walked View Post
    So I'll chime in as someone who has really dug into legacy over the last ~2years now.

    Yes - there's an accessibility problem. 110%

    Yes - I'm finding my anecdotes match others anecdotes (legacy is largely relegated to folks with stable / high incomes, kids are a factor, and life is a factor - much more so than modern/vintage).

    However, what I'm finding is there's a different thing going on. You have dedicated folks (those who have kids and buy homes) that tend to stay in the game (Dice? IIRC you sold out of just about everything but Lands). They're not necessarily hitting weekly events (but most of these folks wouldnt be playing in weeklies regardless of format due to these factors).

    So you have a highly enfranchised group of players with less free time. To me this mirrors a lot of hobbies - those who are into tracking cars, or golf, or have a fishing boat, etc. Most of these people invest a lot of money into their hobbies, and dont necessarily get to take advantage of them weekly. It's simply a part of middle-agedness. I do get regular games in, but generally at home, with my closer friends, over a beer. It's not public, it's not showing up in WotC's numbers, but it fits in my life.

    I guess my thought process is - semi-frequent larger events + MTGO being the core "visible" public side of legacy isnt necessarily an illness; but rather a symptom of the specific demographic of those who are interested in the format
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  14. #20214
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Do you have kids? They'll want to do whatever you're doing.
    No, I am not blessed in that regards yet and doubt getting them addicted to cardboard crack is something I would want them to get. I am fine playing with the kids of friends and family ... and we play whatever they want :)
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  15. #20215

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The most played card in legacy by time frame, according to MTGTop8

    2011: Brainstorm at 52%
    2012: Brainstorm at 62%
    2013: Brainstorm at 64%
    2014: Brainstorm at 66%
    2015: Brainstorm at 73%
    2016: Brainstorm at 60%
    2017: Brainstorm at 61%
    2018: Brainstorm at 54%
    Last two months: Brainstorm at 53%

  16. #20216

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by LOLWut View Post
    The most played card in legacy by time frame, according to MTGTop8

    2011: Brainstorm at 52%
    2012: Brainstorm at 62%
    2013: Brainstorm at 64%
    2014: Brainstorm at 66%
    2015: Brainstorm at 73%
    2016: Brainstorm at 60%
    2017: Brainstorm at 61%
    2018: Brainstorm at 54%
    Last two months: Brainstorm at 53%
    Get historical pricing data on blue duals 2015 until now and methinks you will find an interesting correlation.

  17. #20217
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by walked View Post
    Dice? IIRC you sold out of just about everything but Lands
    Not quite. I kept Goblins, Elves, Infect (Which the Probe Ban killed) Stompy and Stax. I can, if I wanted to, grab another Tundra and build UW Miracles but I think my views on that deck are well known.

    Quote Originally Posted by JosefK View Post
    Some people argue that vintage died because of the brainstorm/ponder restriction...
    What killed it for me was the printing of cards that pushed my deck from Prison to Tempo and saw the restriction of the cards that let me play Terra Nova. I think Vintage has an issue now where we are hitting the point that you have a pure best series of shells and that can not be helped. Thanks to the Restriction only philosophy if you print enough broken shit at some point the best deck is going to be 4 Preordain, Lands and Restricted pile. And unlike Legacy that's not an issue that can be solved.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Do you have kids? They'll want to do whatever you're doing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  18. #20218

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Can we de-couple the "go play modern" argument and the "you're an idiot" namecalling?

    Like many here have said, modern actually does have many of the characteristics people want out of their format:

    - cantrips are generally bad, or at least not the obvious best thing to be doing
    - all colors have something to recommend them
    - many different decks, whether they are really strategically/tactically diverse or not
    - no reserved list
    - lots of relatively populous events
    - aggressive banlist management by WotC

    etc, etc. When I ask people why they don't play Modern if they hate Legacy so much, I don't want to cast them out, far from it; I just want them to examine what they want out of a format, and why they need Legacy to conform to those desires when perfectly good magic that isn't Legacy exists to cater to them.

    Also, it is very possible to enjoy both MOBAs and tabletop games - I know I do. Plus, League is passé - it's all about Fortnite with the kids these days. It's a pretty good game as well, and so is minecraft, if I'm being thorough.

  19. #20219
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Edit:
    May wife actually made a good point. When people leave for life reasons, they are not always selling out. That means they keep their deck and don't induce downward pressure on prices. Another note I had not thought of.
    Im certainly in this category got a job that took me to a little town that has no magic scene and is 2+ hours from the closest shop. I consolidated my collection but kept most of my Legacy/ High value reserve list stuff (sold off Miracles cards) not only am I not selling but now that my finances have stabilized im buying cards again and planning to hit a few of the big events next year.
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  20. #20220

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by JosefK View Post
    Some people argue that vintage died because of the brainstorm/ponder restriction...

    I don't think anything is wrong with the format that can be fixed by bans. The major problem in paper legacy is $$.
    Well, the money problem can be fixed by bans. Ban every card on the Reserved List. Done.

    That brings in its own share of issues, but it would solve the accessibility problem more or less on the spot.

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