All B/R update speculation.

[MorphBerlin]

It is amusing to me that just after we had 2 cards with a major meta share people in here have already picked their next victim in an endless witchhunt of further and further bans...

It seems that is has become a hobby as a debate club especially for people who have 0 investment into the game/format like Lemnear. (correct me if I am wrong but you are not actually playing the format are you? Do you even own any paper cards?

Yes please ban fetchlands so people will be priced so hard out of legacy they will start to play suboptimal decks to finally make the format go full casual. And also please make Blood Moon/Wasteland great and unavoidable again (if you play more than 2 colors) so we can have more non-games. I really hate when both sides get to play magic and the game is not decided by what is in each others opening hands.

[talpa]

Each fetch land can obtain any one of seven color pairs. That's what I said. I'll explain the math to you if you still don't understand it.

I understand the math (I don't find appropriate to write here what my university studies were), maybe I didn't understand so well your english. I'm sorry for that, beg your pardon (but I'm a troll after all, and it was fun for me writing that )

Still, I understand even less what the meaning should ever be... do you consider seven a magic number?
Is it again some kind of "TOO" much?
Have you ever seen a "real" legacy decklists with duals of ALL color pairs that could be theorethically found by all its fetchlands? come on, yours it's still a sentence that has no "game" meaning apart for the obvious mathematical tautology.

[Brainstorm Ape]

A 140-player SCG classic just finished in Worcester. Of the top 16, it looks like only 2 are decks that were previously fueled by DRS, the two Death's Shadow ones, three if you include Dark Depths.

1. Big Eldrazi
2. U/W Stoneblade
3. RUG Delver
4. Goblins
5. Dark Depths
6. UWR Stoneblade
7. B/R Reanimator
8. Grixis Death's Shadow
9 . UWR Delver
10. Miracles
11. Death & Taxes
12. Sneak & Show
13. Death & Taxes
14. Infect
15. Grixis Death's Shadow
16. U/W Stoneblade

Looks like a pretty good top 16. Lots of nonblue lists, diversity among the cantrip piles, only two decks with Drizzleshit in them, and two people cashing in a Legacy event running shocklands in a Daze deck.

Maybe DRS was a good ban, or maybe the format with shit the bed in a few months time. Looks fun enough now.

[BirdsOfParadise]

I didn't say seven was a magic number. I said that fetch lands and dual lands together were arguably a game design mistake since every other fixing cycle involves trade-offs and fetch lands together with dual lands require practically no trade-offs. Calling something a design mistake is not the same as saying it should be banned. Ban lists should always be minimal, so every ban needs a strong motivation, and banning 10 cards would need a huge motivation. What I said was that it would be interesting to see the results of Legacy-minus-fetch-land tournaments. I love mana bases like the one below (I'm quoting apple713 from higher up in the thread).

Creatures (24)
4*Birds of Paradise
1*Cloudchaser Eagle
1*Man-o'-War
2*Nekrataal
1*Orcish Settlers
2*Spike Feeder
1*Spike Weaver
1*Spirit of the Night
1*Thrull Surgeon
1*Tradewind Rider
2*Uktabi Orangutan
1*Verdant Force
4*Wall of Blossoms
2*Wall of Roots

Sorceries (4)
2*Firestorm
2*Lobotomy

Enchantments (8)
4*Recurring Nightmare
4*Survival of the Fittest

Artifacts (2)
2*Scroll Rack

Lands (22)
3*City of Brass
8*Forest
1*Gemstone Mine
2*Karplusan Forest
2*Reflecting Pool
1*Swamp
2*Underground River
2*Undiscovered Paradise
1*Volrath's Stronghold

[phonics]

It is amusing to me that just after we had 2 cards with a major meta share people in here have already picked their next victim in an endless witchhunt of further and further bans...

It seems that is has become a hobby as a debate club especially for people who have 0 investment into the game/format like Lemnear. (correct me if I am wrong but you are not actually playing the format are you? Do you even own any paper cards?

Yes please ban fetchlands so people will be priced so hard out of legacy they will start to play suboptimal decks to finally make the format go full casual. And also please make Blood Moon/Wasteland great and unavoidable again (if you play more than 2 colors) so we can have more non-games. I really hate when both sides get to play magic and the game is not decided by what is in each others opening hands.

The discussion arose from multiple concepts, but to misconstrue it as a witch hunt, going after whatever needs to be banned next, is disingenuous. The entire point of this thread is speculation, if you aren't willing to discuss hypotheticals then why are you even in this thread? One of the merits of removing fetchlands (which has already been mentioned multiple times in this thread) would be potentially allowing previously banned cards (like top or drs) to be unbanned, so it wouldn't be simply just continuously adding cards to the ban list like some witch hunt as you claim.

The rest of your post is just baseless fearmongering. None of those examples are a given. The entire point of blood moon and wasteland are to punish greedy mana bases, as in there is a risk that is associated with running more colors, which I think everyone agrees should be a thing. It is only blue that is spoiled with the consistency required to run the greediest mana bases well. These cards are essentially useless against a wide swath of decks that don't run greedy mana bases. Its like every other non blue color based archetype that doesnt have access to cantrips and already has to work with 2 colors or less suddenly doesn't exist, or is not relevant to this discussion. It just goes to show how skewed the perception of what Legacy as a format has become from the past decade of increasing cantrip shell dominance.

[talpa]

The discussion arose from multiple concepts, but to misconstrue it as a witch hunt, going after whatever needs to be banned next, is disingenuous. The entire point of this thread is speculation

The entire point of this thread is trolling, complaining about brainstorm, cantrips in general, blue in general, and more recently about fetchlands but just as a disguised witch hunt against current tier decks (as somebody was so ingenuous to candidly admit).
Also, the point of this thread is to never reply on the merit of the questions.
I just made a not-so-quick recap of the last 10 pages of nothingness, pointing out how not a single against-fetches "argument" remains standing once scrutinized except "shuffling in real wastes time"... you can talk of "multiple concepts" only as long as you use obscure references, because once you ask for details, all that remains is foolishness and/or brainstorm hate (which in my opinion is exactly the same)

Also if you like speculations so much, that's precisely what morphBerlin made: he told what would happen according to him if fetchlands were ever to be banned. I fully agree with him and I also think that's precisely another one of the "secret" goals that someone is afraid to admit (but it's implicit in the objective "I want tiers1 to become tiers2"): for Legacy to become a more casual format.
That's why I said before "go play commander" (sorry, I didn't meant to stimulate trolls to go trolling there), if you prefer I'd encourage you to play pre-modern, brainstorm is banned there and you can enjoy the 2005 feel.
Also there aren't ABU duals in that format, so you can enjoy the manabases you seem to like so much.

[Gheizen64]

Why are people still replying ti this dude? Also, free nedlees, at least he was funny and could argument beside Just calling people names

[talpa]

Told someone who doesn't just hate brainstorm

Can't wait until we ban everything but brainstorm to address the blue cantrip shell power level.

and is always right

Oh, what i surprise, what i said would happen actually happened!
Banning top did just kill miracle

Let me have a look again at what the current decks to beat list is. I think I see UW miracle there.

Aaron Forsythe really did hurt you haters bad.

[MorphBerlin]

The discussion arose from multiple concepts, but to misconstrue it as a witch hunt, going after whatever needs to be banned next, is disingenuous. The entire point of this thread is speculation, if you aren't willing to discuss hypotheticals then why are you even in this thread? One of the merits of removing fetchlands (which has already been mentioned multiple times in this thread) would be potentially allowing previously banned cards (like top or drs) to be unbanned, so it wouldn't be simply just continuously adding cards to the ban list like some witch hunt as you claim.

The rest of your post is just baseless fearmongering. None of those examples are a given. The entire point of blood moon and wasteland are to punish greedy mana bases, as in there is a risk that is associated with running more colors, which I think everyone agrees should be a thing. It is only blue that is spoiled with the consistency required to run the greediest mana bases well. These cards are essentially useless against a wide swath of decks that don't run greedy mana bases. Its like every other non blue color based archetype that doesnt have access to cantrips and already has to work with 2 colors or less suddenly doesn't exist, or is not relevant to this discussion. It just goes to show how skewed the perception of what Legacy as a format has become from the past decade of increasing cantrip shell dominance.

So the entire point of the threat is speculation but what I do is baseless fearmongering? Interesting...

Define greedy for me please, everything above 2 colors is greedy? I really lack the definition used here which seems to differ what I call greedy. Czech Pile with 20 lands 2 Basics was greedy, Pile with 20 Lands 2 of which are wastelands was super greedy, 4c with Grooves for PFrie was greedy. That's my definition. Those were only possible because of DRS holding everything together though, so I am interested which decks run these "greedy" mana bases everyone is taling about now.

[Gheizen64]

This is funny honestly, i Imagine this raging dude writing wots and searching old post histories and i can't help but laugh at the Image. Guess he should have his fun as well

[Tittliewinks22]

Unban Earthcraft, Frantic Search, Mind Twist.

Also, prisoner exchange please.

-1 SDT +1 Counterbalance

[Mr. Safety]

#freenedleeds

[hiski]

Unban Earthcraft, Frantic Search, Mind Twist.

Also, prisoner exchange please.

-1 SDT +1 Counterbalance

If I may nitpick this one:

I would swap Sensei's Top for Terminus

[Tittliewinks22]

If I may nitpick this one:

I would swap Sensei's Top for Terminus

The reason I say CB is because it was the reason people spun top so often which goes with their "reasoning" for the ban in the first place. "Takes too much time to spin top in response to every spell"

This would not be a thing if counterbalance was not legal.

[Scott]

Have there been many large paper events since the bans? Interested in seeing if DRS fueled archetypes are still good enough without

A 140-player SCG classic just finished in Worcester. Of the top 16, it looks like only 2 are decks that were previously fueled by DRS, the two Death's Shadow ones, three if you include Dark Depths.

1. Big Eldrazi
2. U/W Stoneblade
3. RUG Delver
4. Goblins
5. Dark Depths
6. UWR Stoneblade
7. B/R Reanimator
8. Grixis Death's Shadow
9 . UWR Delver
10. Miracles
11. Death & Taxes
12. Sneak & Show
13. Death & Taxes
14. Infect
15. Grixis Death's Shadow
16. U/W Stoneblade

There was also a Team Open with 270 teams, and the Top 26 had two Grixis Delver decks, one Grixis Control deck, and one BUG Control deck, but because it's a Team Open, we don't know exactly how well the Legacy decks did.

It sounds like there was also a 110-player invitational in China. If the info is correct, the top 8 had Miracles X2, BUG Delver, Deadguy Ale/BW D&T, Steel Stompy, UWR Stoneblade, Turbo Depths, and Dragon Stompy.

[Ronald Deuce]

It sounds like there was also a 110-player invitational in China. If the info is correct, the top 8 had Miracles X2, BUG Delver, Deadguy Ale/BW D&T, Steel Stompy, UWR Stoneblade, Turbo Depths, and Dragon Stompy.

So countermagic, Counterbalance, taxing counters, taxes with death, artifact-based hard counters, artifact-based taxing counters, and fast combo. Metagame's uglier than the prospect of kissing a belt-sander.

Probe did nothing wrong.

[Humphrey]

I didn't say seven was a magic number. I said that fetch lands and dual lands together were arguably a game design mistake since every other fixing cycle involves trade-offs and fetch lands together with dual lands require practically no trade-offs. Calling something a design mistake is not the same as saying it should be banned. Ban lists should always be minimal, so every ban needs a strong motivation, and banning 10 cards would need a huge motivation. What I said was that it would be interesting to see the results of Legacy-minus-fetch-land tournaments. I love mana bases like the one below (I'm quoting apple713 from higher up in the thread).

Banning the 10 Fetches would probably allow the unban of:

Dig Through Time
Treasure Cruise
Sensei's Divining Top
Deathrite Shaman (wouldnt be banned in the first place)



while also balancing some of the untouched broken cards like everybodys darling brainstorm.

[Fox]

Banning the 10 Fetches would probably allow the unban of:

Dig Through Time
Treasure Cruise
Sensei's Divining Top
Deathrite Shaman (wouldnt be banned in the first place)



while also balancing some of the untouched broken cards like everybodys darling brainstorm.

Considering Probe also gone at same time as Fetches in your scenario, the assessment seems fine, except for Treasure Cruise (and omission of CB prisoner exchange for SDT). That one helped exactly one deck, and they can still delve-mana ramp with Fireblast, Bedlam Reveler, and probably also have to consider implications of Faithless Looting. It's fine to give it another trial run to see, but unlike DTT the purpose generally skews towards proactive linearity rather than punishing decks for running discard without also trying to win in a coordinated, quick fashion.
---
There seems to be a lot of focus on banning 10 whole cards, but this is like the Moxen: one single concept.

Edit: @Scott looking at the top16 and top8 results you posted, without looking at any decklist we can easily infer that 18/24 (probably 19 if Gobbos was splashing any other color) Fetchland users, 3/24 sol land/Chalice, and 3/24 Cavern/Vial (Gobbos might be in Fetchland category).

This isn't anything new of course, it's just not really diversity. Different color combos doing different things is great and all, but more diversity is possible when you have more starting points [i.e. manabase styles] than the Fetchland engine versus the only mana producing lands strategies that can compete with that engine.

[Ellomdian]

The entire point of this thread is trolling, complaining about brainstorm, cantrips in general, blue in general, and more recently about fetchlands

No, pretty sure the point of this thread at this point is to provide a Dumpster for certain posters to live in so they don't clutter up virtually every other constructive discussion on this site with their unfounded idiocy and personal vendettas (show me on the doll where the Brainstorm touched you!) Virtually every one of the 1000 pages here contains at least one post that is a direct attack on another individual completely outside of the realm of gaming discussion, assuming one of the many mod purges hasn't wiped it.

Back when there was constructive discussion and speculation, it was an interesting place, but now it's just MTG-flavored bum fights. If there was a requirement that you had a sanctioned game in an event with more than 8 people in the last year to keep posting to the site, half of this thread would be dead.

[Mr. Safety]

No, pretty sure the point of this thread at this point is to provide a Dumpster for certain posters to live in so they don't clutter up virtually every other constructive discussion on this site with their unfounded idiocy and personal vendettas (show me on the doll where the Brainstorm touched you!) Virtually every one of the 1000 pages here contains at least one post that is a direct attack on another individual completely outside of the realm of gaming discussion, assuming one of the many mod purges hasn't wiped it.

Back when there was constructive discussion and speculation, it was an interesting place, but now it's just MTG-flavored bum fights. If there was a requirement that you had a sanctioned game in an event with more than 8 people in the last year to keep posting to the site, half of this thread would be dead.

If you're going to troll those of us discussing a fetchland ban/change to the format, at least do it with style.