View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21221
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.


  2. #21222
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Would have been nice to see an unban in Legacy and Modern. SFM in Modern, Earthcraft and/or Mind Twist in Legacy.
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  3. #21223
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    "When we examine the effect of powerful cards, we consider whether they are increasing or decreasing the number of viable decks in the environment."


    How the fuck is top banned while counterbalance, terminus and griselbrand are legal
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  4. #21224
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I think they don't care about legacy and they cannot afford the cards to properly evaluate the format.
    BS and Ponder should go long time ago.
    Show and Tell and Emtomb too or just ban Grizzlybrand. The people at Hasbro are no competent enough. They should hire professional mathematicians to properly evaluate each format not a bunch of random people from the street.

    I am moving to Premodern and French Commander for a couple of months. At least I still will be able to play with my old cards and have fun.

    They killed a format with huge potential.

    Shame.

    edit: Btw I think they should have banned Ancient Stirring instead of KCI for modern. To reduce the power of 3 decks not killing one.

  5. #21225
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    All these should be banned imo. Why brainstorm and ponder are still legal is nonsense. Show and Tell will only get better with age, so that has to go too. Griselbrand is op. Dark depth will also get better with age, its a pretty stupid interaction that makes it viable.

    Brainstorm
    Ponder
    Show and Tell
    Griselbrand
    Dark Depths

  6. #21226
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    @Kap'n Cook: that is how they manage Modern, not Legacy apparently, see below.

    @Matsu: they care about the format [well considering GP planning maybe not so much after all] but they want there to be a place where transgressive stuff is allowed.

    Aaron Forsythe (@mtgaaron) Tweeted:
    "It's one of the "pillars of the format" that makes it unique and players tolerate/love. It's like Brainstorm in Legacy. Every saturation metric we could ever invent would point to it being banned, but people love it. Transgressive stuff needs a place to live."

    https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/...188588544?s=17

    However, I agree that Top should have stayed and Brainstorm or second offender Counterbalance should have left. But the practical issues related to time management of tournaments need to be respected too. I agree with Kap'n Cook that cantrip heavy decks often result in the same drawn-out patterns so maybe banning a few cantrips and leaving Top would have had the same effect. We'll never know. Or will we, I'm actually very much interested in a player managed banlist, and more so an online tournament format for evaluating different banlists, for fun and interest. But I refrained from suggesting it for fear of spending even more time on this beloved hobby..

    Edit: otoh, I also understand that Brainstorm helps combo decks and enables interesting play patterns (actually, so does Top), and maybe Top enabled too much reliable topdecking.. It's not a simple question. Just wanted to add that.

    Edit2: oh yeah, interesting discussion on Memory Jar.
    Last edited by pettdan; 01-22-2019 at 06:15 AM.
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  7. #21227
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    @Kap'n Cook: that is how they manage Modern, not Legacy apparently, see below.

    @Matsu: they care about the format [well considering GP planning maybe not so much after all] but they want there to be a place where transgressive stuff is allowed.

    Aaron Forsythe (@mtgaaron) Tweeted:
    "It's one of the "pillars of the format" that makes it unique and players tolerate/love. It's like Brainstorm in Legacy. Every saturation metric we could ever invent would point to it being banned, but people love it. Transgressive stuff needs a place to live."

    https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/...188588544?s=17

    However, I agree that Top should have stayed and Brainstorm or second offender Counterbalance should have left. But the practical issues related to time management of tournaments need to be respected too. I agree with Kap'n Cook that cantrip heavy decks often result in the same drawn-out patterns so maybe banning a few cantrips and leaving Top would have had the same effect. We'll never know. Or will we, I'm actually very much interested in a player managed banlist, and more so an online tournament format for evaluating different banlists, for fun and interest. But I refrained from suggesting it for fear of spending even more time on this beloved hobby..

    Edit: otoh, I also understand that Brainstorm helps combo decks and enables interesting play patterns (actually, so does Top), and maybe Top enabled too much reliable topdecking.. It's not a simple question. Just wanted to add that.

    Edit2: oh yeah, interesting discussion on Memory Jar.
    I do not know who Aron Forsyth is. But if you put a random card as Pillar of the format, definitely you dont know anything about the game. The only cards that are pillar of the format, any format are: Plains, Swamp, Mountain, Forest and Island.

    If I will unban a card, probably Bargain and I would heavily play test Oath (will require Orchard to be banned first) and Survival (will require Elvish Spirit Guide to be banned first) if they are not too powerful engines.

    I do not know about Mem Jar, i just remember dying to it long time ago ;)
    Frantic Search might push WUG Enchantress or High tide a tier higher.
    Earthcraft does not look oppressive because of the Basic restriction.
    I played when Gush was legal, but i think there are enough fair cantrips (not DS+ ponder at the moment so this one is not needed.

    There are not DD decks in my playgroup so i really dont know how powerful this combo deck is.
    I agree with Top banning, if Top will stay and BS+Ponder will go, the 1 mana artifact will be everywhere.

  8. #21228
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
    I do not know who Aron Forsyth is. But if you put a random card as Pillar of the format, definitely you dont know anything about the game. The only cards that are pillar of the format, any format are: Plains, Swamp, Mountain, Forest and Island.

    If I will unban a card, probably Bargain and I would heavily play test Oath (will require Orchard to be banned first) and Survival (will require Elvish Spirit Guide to be banned first) if they are not too powerful engines.

    I do not know about Mem Jar, i just remember dying to it long time ago ;)
    Frantic Search might push WUG Enchantress or High tide a tier higher.
    Earthcraft does not look oppressive because of the Basic restriction.
    I played when Gush was legal, but i think there are enough fair cantrips (not DS+ ponder at the moment so this one is not needed.

    There are not DD decks in my playgroup so i really dont know how powerful this combo deck is.
    I agree with Top banning, if Top will stay and BS+Ponder will go, the 1 mana artifact will be everywhere.
    Oath of Druids is definitely too good.
    The only time I ever really felt unbeatable was when I played Oath in extended back when that was still an option.
    And Orchard hadn't been printed yet. You don't need Orchard anyway. Just manlands to create threats other than Oath.

  9. #21229
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    How can you say show and tell and survival should be banned because they only get better over time and then say we should think about unbanning Oath?
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  10. #21230
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Oath of Druids is definitely too good.
    The only time I ever really felt unbeatable was when I played Oath in extended back when that was still an option.
    And Orchard hadn't been printed yet. You don't need Orchard anyway. Just manlands to create threats other than Oath.
    It is definitely possible Oath will be too powerful. Back in the days you played Superman + Spike Feeder + Spike Weaver at least my friend played this version. Then it should stay banned. The main issue with Oath at the moment is the strength of crits. If you compare Morphling (most powerful crit excluding Spiritmonger) to Grizzlybrand, Emi, Poison Colossus... o boy.

    If it is too powerful just keep it banned with appropriate data behind it.

  11. #21231
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Oath is insane, it's like Show and Tell on steroids. It's nowhere near safe to unban. I was just watching Vintage Survival on mtggoldfish, and jesus christ is Bazaar of Baghdad busted straight in half! If Legacy is the format where transgressive stuff is allowed to live then Vintage is straight up Alcatraz. In my opinion, the discussion surrounding unbans should be:

    1) In light of how banned cards match up against the other powerful things the format is doing? Is it less powerful or more powerful than tier 1? Tier 2?
    2) Would the unbanning of a card create more or less strategic diversity? Deck diversity?
    3) Does the card in question give a strict upgrade to an already powerful strategy, one that would make that strategy oppressive?
    4) Does the card in question create a unique linear strategy that would tax already strained sideboard strategies in Legacy?
    4b) Are there already played sideboard cards that overlap against this strategy? (ie grave hate applies to Dredge, Reanimator, storm)
    5) Does the card encourage interaction during gameplay or discourage interaction?
    6) Watch some Vintage games on YouTube. This isn't any sort of measurable technique, but it can give you an idea of what the card in question can do on a raw power level. Yes Vintage has Moxen and a totally different approach. However, a good first impression from Vintage could be 'is the card in question played in Vintage? Is it a core strategy in Vintage? Why isn't it played in Vintage? Does legacy have the tools to break the card in question (cantrips, etc)?

    The biggest reason for comparing to Vintage isn't to show my ignorance of Vintage (which is large) but to understand how Legacy compares and contrasts to other formats. If there is a format that fits what you want to do in magic, play that format. If there isn't one, make a case for how Legacy should be shaped to become the format you want. By and large this is what most people are bringing to the discussion. I don't think Oath of Druids is some unquestionable sacred cow that we couldn't discuss, but on the surface it seems to be more powerful than other cards being discussed for unbans (Mind Twist, Earthcraft, even Memory Jar.)
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  12. #21232
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
    It is definitely possible Oath will be too powerful. Back in the days you played Superman + Spike Feeder + Spike Weaver at least my friend played this version. Then it should stay banned. The main issue with Oath at the moment is the strength of crits. If you compare Morphling (most powerful crit excluding Spiritmonger) to Grizzlybrand, Emi, Poison Colossus... o boy.

    If it is too powerful just keep it banned with appropriate data behind it.
    Yeah I played with Archangel, Masticore and Spike Feeder. So good...
    But now, even if you don't go for any the obvious ones, just 4x Chancellor of the Tangle is already a nightmare, accellerating us into Oath or stuff like Standstill.
    Just any fat dude with Vigilance and/or Lifelink will probably be fine.

  13. #21233

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
    I do not know who Aron Forsyth is. But if you put a random card as Pillar of the format, definitely you dont know anything about the game. The only cards that are pillar of the format, any format are: Plains, Swamp, Mountain, Forest and Island.

    If I will unban a card, probably Bargain and I would heavily play test Oath (will require Orchard to be banned first) and Survival (will require Elvish Spirit Guide to be banned first) if they are not too powerful engines.

    I do not know about Mem Jar, i just remember dying to it long time ago ;)
    Frantic Search might push WUG Enchantress or High tide a tier higher.
    Earthcraft does not look oppressive because of the Basic restriction.
    I played when Gush was legal, but i think there are enough fair cantrips (not DS+ ponder at the moment so this one is not needed.

    There are not DD decks in my playgroup so i really dont know how powerful this combo deck is.
    I agree with Top banning, if Top will stay and BS+Ponder will go, the 1 mana artifact will be everywhere.
    Yeah oath should be fine.
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  14. #21234
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    Yeah oath should be fine.
    Not only that, but the only thing keeping Survival too powerful is Elvish Spirit Guide! Wow, I missed that boat...here I was thinking Vengevine and Basking Rootwalla were the good creature to go with Survival.
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  15. #21235

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Not only that, but the only thing keeping Survival too powerful is Elvish Spirit Guide! Wow, I missed that boat...here I was thinking Vengevine and Basking Rootwalla were the good creature to go with Survival.
    Part of the trick is that there's a whole catalog. Necrotic Ooze or Griselbrand + Loyal Retainers are derpy too.

  16. #21236
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Part of the trick is that there's a whole catalog. Necrotic Ooze or Griselbrand + Loyal Retainers are derpy too.
    Which is why I loathe reductionist conversations about an incredibly complicated game. Hell, you could play Survival/Ooze combo with Entomb and be a genuinely better BG combo deck than Depths. Hell, I still think a Buried Alive/Vengevine/Bloodghast deck could be competitive in Legacy without Survival.
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  17. #21237
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Can someone elaborate the chain of thought that SnT is too powerful because Grizzel/Emrakul, but rendering creature decks completely unplayable by Oath into Grizzel/Emrakul is fine?
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  18. #21238
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    They would all be fine if they made a green Blood Moon with Kicker.
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  19. #21239

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Which is why I loathe reductionist conversations about an incredibly complicated game. Hell, you could play Survival/Ooze combo with Entomb and be a genuinely better BG combo deck than Depths. Hell, I still think a Buried Alive/Vengevine/Bloodghast deck could be competitive in Legacy without Survival.
    Have you seen the new phoenix deck? If you want to do the buried alive thing you might like it.

    Also, I still think unbanning Survival wouldn't do anything.

  20. #21240
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    Have you seen the new phoenix deck? If you want to do the buried alive thing you might like it.

    Also, I still think unbanning Survival wouldn't do anything.
    I have seen it!!! I think it's fantastic. The current consensus is that Grixis or Esper are the correct shell, and I'm not sure Vengevine plays nice with that strategy (Phoenix needs cheep spells, Vengevine needs cheap creatures.) Somewhere in the middle of this mess is what to do, if anything, with Bloodghast and Hollow One.

    Survival would be an interesting shakeup. First question: is it as powerful as the current tier 1 decks? (Miracles, Grixis Control, Death and Taxes) How does it stack up against the tier 2 decks? (Eldrazi, Turbo Depths, Grixis Delver, Storm)
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