View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21261

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    Am I the only one who actually wants them to fuck up on a semi-regular basis? That means they are actually printing new cards with a chance to disrupt the eternal formats.

    IMO it is much more interesting for the format when they print high power-level cards that can *gasp* disrupt the meta.
    I don't mind them 'disrupting the format' with powerful cards, the only problem I have is often the cards are either more shit for dnt or shit that can get absorbed by the blue shell. or something like tnn which should just be retroactively aborted

    On that note, I've been glad theyve taken to printing some strong spells lately...Light Up the Stage seems hopeful, for example.

  2. #21262

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    If they fuck up and make new decks that's cool. If they fuck up and just outclass a whole lot of cards then please don't.

  3. #21263
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    There's a difference between printing shit like Shardless Agent, Scavenging Ooze, Flusterstorm, Past in Flames and DRS and printing shit like TNN, Griseltard, Omnidrool or Terminus. You have to make cards both strong and interesting or I'd rather not have them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
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    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  4. #21264
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    Am I the only one who actually wants them to fuck up on a semi-regular basis? That means they are actually printing new cards with a chance to disrupt the eternal formats.

    IMO it is much more interesting for the format when they print high power-level cards that can *gasp* disrupt the meta.
    You are not! You make a really good point.

    Legacy players will be dissatisfied every time a set comes out with nothing impactful. Also, Legacy players will be dissatisfied every time a set comes out with something impactful.

    It just takes longer in the latter case to hear the complaints. But in the meantime, there are a lot of great innovations happening. In the former...nothing.
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  5. #21265

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    printing shit like TNN, Griseltard, Omnidrool or Terminus. You have to make cards both strong and interesting or I'd rather not have them.
    funny how all those cards you mentioned get busted when paired with BS, especially terminus which is innocuous without BS.

    Would you rather have shaman, probe, top, earthcraft, mindtwist, dig through time, treasure cruise, fastbond and even mana drain instead of BS?
    Yes, please...
    Last edited by non-inflammable; 02-03-2019 at 11:30 AM.

  6. #21266
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    If they ever banned Terminus, they'd have to ban Vial. It's not really acceptable to have DnT making wraths cost 6 [Port/Thalia] +/- Wastelands. Otherwise you'd need an unconditional 3 mana sorc speed wrath, or a 4 mana unconditional instant speed one. As always, ban CB and unban SDT - combo can make miracles stop playing so many white cards, aggro has comprehensively failed to make miracles stop playing Counterbalance.

  7. #21267
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    You are not! You make a really good point.

    Legacy players will be dissatisfied every time a set comes out with nothing impactful. Also, Legacy players will be dissatisfied every time a set comes out with something impactful.

    It just takes longer in the latter case to hear the complaints. But in the meantime, there are a lot of great innovations happening. In the former...nothing.
    I also like his post; mistakes mean they are at least trying to push boundaries. Until recently cards that have jumped to legacy have only supported mid-range or control strategies (kcommand, asstrophy, most notably.) When cards break through, but aren't oppressive, they tend to be good stuff cards, which pushes the metagame fair (which it overwhelmingly is atm.) Then they printed goblins that broke into legacy. Hell, Goblins just won a local 1K yesterday i played in, and there was another copy in the top 8. They recently got trashmaster and cratermaker. I hope this trend continues because having legitimate non-delver aggressive decks is great for the format.
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  8. #21268
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    If they ever banned Terminus, they'd have to ban Vial. It's not really acceptable to have DnT making wraths cost 6 [Port/Thalia] +/- Wastelands. Otherwise you'd need an unconditional 3 mana sorc speed wrath, or a 4 mana unconditional instant speed one. As always, ban CB and unban SDT - combo can make miracles stop playing so many white cards, aggro has comprehensively failed to make miracles stop playing Counterbalance.
    Yeah, uh, if the best deck in the format is mono white piss in your Cheerios, thatís fine.

    Mostly because the last time a non-blue deck was the best deck in the format was...Maverick in 2012
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  9. #21269
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    Yeah, uh, if the best deck in the format is mono white piss in your Cheerios, thatís fine.

    Mostly because the last time a non-blue deck was the best deck in the format was...Maverick in 2012
    Not really about DnTís position in the meta; you have a mana-cheating artifact that makes a creature-feature deck pretty much immune to [not-Terminus] wrath effects. Denying the mana is fine, but not when a 1-drop = never a window where you have to stop powering up Ports and chucking Wastelands to develop a board state that can kill before ~6 land drops from an opponent.

  10. #21270
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    If they ever banned Terminus, they'd have to ban Vial. It's not really acceptable to have DnT making wraths cost 6 [Port/Thalia] +/- Wastelands. Otherwise you'd need an unconditional 3 mana sorc speed wrath, or a 4 mana unconditional instant speed one.
    I don't think there is a need to spoil people with powercreeped unconditional boardwipes if there is just so much room to give to fantastic narrower cards which have fallen from grace like Dread Of Night or Pyroclam to battle weenie armies.

    If you ask me the game desperately needs reasons to sleeve narrow silverbullets and tradeoffs instead of just getting to rely on the ever same catch-all cards like Terminus, Decay and such in every deck running the respective colors, just for us to complain about everyone playing with the same tools
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  11. #21271
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    Mostly because the last time a non-blue deck was the best deck in the format was...Maverick in 2012
    What a pity.
    (Yes, that's a flammable comment, but since there is again someone speaking of brainstorm )

  12. #21272

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    funny how all those cards you mentioned get busted when paired with BS, especially terminus which is innocuous without BS.

    Would you rather have shaman, probe, top, earthcraft, mindtwist, dig through time, treasure cruise, fastbond and even mana drain instead of BS?
    Yes, please...
    Isn't there a modern deck that is playing terminus? I'm pretty sure that format doesn't have Brainstorm in it.

    I also don't think that banning brainstorm would make it possible to unban DTT, Cruise, Fastbond, or Mana Drain. The rest they could totally unban right now, would be fine (though I personally think Mind Twist is just kinda dumb - like, what good games are going to come of that?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    Yeah, uh, if the best deck in the format is mono white piss in your Cheerios, thatís fine.

    Mostly because the last time a non-blue deck was the best deck in the format was...Maverick in 2012
    I mean, DnT is a DTB and has been regularly for the past few months, it's not like it's some subversive underdog. It certainly takes skill to play, but it's also unambiguously miserable to experience as their opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    If you ask me the game desperately needs reasons to sleeve narrow silverbullets and tradeoffs instead of just getting to rely on the ever same catch-all cards like Terminus, Decay and such in every deck running the respective colors, just for us to complain about everyone playing with the same tools
    If you want this dynamic, I don't think eternal formats are what you want - the nature of non-rotating formats is that only the best tools will be useful because of the high bar for powerlevel. They specifically design standard to have these choices, by contrast: they don't print counterspell, but instead print Negate, Essence Scatter, and Cancel, so you have to pick which one you think will be most useful, and have moments where the one you picked is garbage and doesn't do anything.

    I personally hate that feeling, and like it more when the interesting choices in interaction have more to do with evaluating intra-game threats rather than having to guess which weapons to bring.

  13. #21273
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I don't think there is a need to spoil people with powercreeped unconditional boardwipes if there is just so much room to give to fantastic narrower cards which have fallen from grace like Dread Of Night or Pyroclam to battle weenie armies.

    If you ask me the game desperately needs reasons to sleeve narrow silverbullets and tradeoffs instead of just getting to rely on the ever same catch-all cards like Terminus, Decay and such in every deck running the respective colors, just for us to complain about everyone playing with the same tools
    EDIT: Goblins is on the rise again as well, it took 1st at a local tournament (The other 'Goblins' player was a Moon Stompy deck playing Rabblemaster.) You know what card Goblins isn't afraid of? Terminus. I'm not saying Goblins vs. Miracles is a bye, but it's overwhelmingly favored.

    I like your comment about narrower cards like Dread of Night and Pyroclasm. I would slam Pyroclasms in every deck I own if it was good enough, and in most case I think it is. What holds it back is True-Name Nemesis, everyone is in a panic to make sure their wiper deals with TNN. By artificially changing the metagame around that card people are going to lose a lot of games to swarms of small dudes.

    Just to throw some other good wipers out there:

    Zealous Persecution
    Electrickery
    Volcanic Fallout
    Virtue's Ruin
    Nature's Ruin
    Perish
    Engineered Plague
    Pyrokinesis
    Cave-In
    Settle the Wreckage
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 02-04-2019 at 12:47 PM.
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  14. #21274
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    If you want this dynamic, I don't think eternal formats are what you want - the nature of non-rotating formats is that only the best tools will be useful because of the high bar for powerlevel. They specifically design standard to have these choices, by contrast: they don't print counterspell, but instead print Negate, Essence Scatter, and Cancel, so you have to pick which one you think will be most useful, and have moments where the one you picked is garbage and doesn't do anything.

    I personally hate that feeling, and like it more when the interesting choices in interaction have more to do with evaluating intra-game threats rather than having to guess which weapons to bring.
    Without a doubt the best overall tools will float atop of other options as staple cards, but it would not hurt to leave some space for more narrow answers rather than immediately removing that space with some new uncontested powerhouses like proposed. The format is fine without Terminus or a hypothetical 3cc unconditional boardwipe and DnT isn't a real argument in favor of Terminus being fair and mandatory
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
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  15. #21275
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    EDIT: Goblins is on the rise again as well, it took 1st at a local tournament (The other 'Goblins' player was a Moon Stompy deck playing Rabblemaster.) You know what card Goblins isn't afraid of? Terminus. I'm not saying Goblins vs. Miracles is a bye, but it's overwhelmingly favored.

    I like your comment about narrower cards like Dread of Night and Pyroclasm. I would slam Pyroclasms in every deck I own if it was good enough, and in most case I think it is. What holds it back is True-Name Nemesis, everyone is in a panic to make sure their wiper deals with TNN. By artificially changing the metagame around that card people are going to lose a lot of games to swarms of small dudes.

    Just to throw some other good wipers out there:

    Zealous Persecution
    Electrickery
    Volcanic Fallout
    Virtue's Ruin
    Nature's Ruin
    Perish
    Engineered Plague
    Pyrokinesis
    Cave-In
    Settle the Wreckage
    I would add old but gold Wing Shards good mostly uncounterable.

  16. #21276
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Without a doubt the best overall tools will float atop of other options as staple cards, but it would not hurt to leave some space for more narrow answers rather than immediately removing that space with some new uncontested powerhouses like proposed. The format is fine without Terminus or a hypothetical 3cc unconditional boardwipe and DnT isn't a real argument in favor of Terminus being fair and mandatory
    It's what they do though, and once you start printing linear uninteractive effects (like Vial and TNN in recent conversation), you need fairly perfect answers. You don't have much time to draw imperfect cards, and in the case of UW there is pretty much no wrath effect (other than Terminus) that you can cast against DnT before you'd be dead. Just from a design/balance standpoint, there's kind of a problem when the Wrath of God color can't wrath a creature deck - Aether Vial is the reason for this. There are 3rd color answers to DnT, but there is no playable answer to DnT in UW without Terminus - you're getting into Planar Collapse territory.

    You talk about diversity of imperfect tools, which is an agreeable point, but you'd probably need to roll back a number of cards (things like Vial, Terminus, Thoughtseize, TNN, and probably also Snapcaster & Goyf & maybe even Griselbrand). Without a sweeping amount of bans, you'd start losing 2c viability; so as dumb as a 3 mana instant unconditional white wrath would be it would have to exist to keep playing strict-UW. I don't think fixing the problem is a positive move if it just means more deck similarity with heavier reliance on Fetchlands to add a 3rd color tool that everyone ends up sharing.

    Edit: add Surgical to that list as well.

  17. #21277
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    It's what they do though, and once you start printing linear uninteractive effects (like Vial and TNN in recent conversation), you need fairly perfect answers. You don't have much time to draw imperfect cards, and in the case of UW there is pretty much no wrath effect (other than Terminus) that you can cast against DnT before you'd be dead. Just from a design/balance standpoint, there's kind of a problem when the Wrath of God color can't wrath a creature deck - Aether Vial is the reason for this. There are 3rd color answers to DnT, but there is no playable answer to DnT in UW without Terminus - you're getting into Planar Collapse territory.

    You talk about diversity of imperfect tools, which is an agreeable point, but you'd probably need to roll back a number of cards (things like Vial, Terminus, Thoughtseize, TNN, and probably also Snapcaster & Goyf & maybe even Griselbrand). Without a sweeping amount of bans, you'd start losing 2c viability; so as dumb as a 3 mana instant unconditional white wrath would be it would have to exist to keep playing strict-UW. I don't think fixing the problem is a positive move if it just means more deck similarity with heavier reliance on Fetchlands to add a 3rd color tool that everyone ends up sharing.

    Edit: add Surgical to that list as well.
    Banning Terminus will not make D&T unbeatable. I don't think that it is kept in check by this card. It has a harder time vs grixis control and all the answers that are available to black and red mages (Deluge and Kolaghan's command. Dread of night in the sideboard).
    Also D&T doesn't have any built in CA. Aether vial does nothing alone and it has no Library manipulation. That's the doom of the deck (I still play it because it's fun) and that is the main reason why it's not the top dog. It's a meta deck, that is hard to pilot well (you have to know perfectly what your opponent wants to do). Banning terminus will make it better vs UW control for sure. However, it will not asses any of the problems D&T has vs other decks. And banning terminus will free some decks from the tier 2 zone as an added bonus.

    Also, I don't think it is more miserable to play vs D&T and being unable to cast a spell than for example a blue tempo deck that drops a delver on T1 and counters every spell you play or play vs mono red prison and have all of your spells cost 3 on first turn of the game.
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  18. #21278
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    Also D&T doesn't have any built in CA.
    SFM, Flickerwisp + Recruiter, Palace Jailer. This accounts for at least 1 in 6 cards of their deck.

    To finish your thoughts on strict-UW:
    -That color will become unplayable without Terminus
    -It will die specifically to DnT because of Vial making every attempt to wrath cost 6 land drops.
    -DnT will be the best creature deck in the format.
    -DnT will be the only played creature deck b/c itís the only one that can stop any attempt to wrath out of team Tundra.
    -DnT also has Mother of Runes which goes from Duress target counterspell -> Duress target spot removal -> transforms into Chalice x=spot removal.

    There is nothing healthy about Grixis ďcontrol.Ē That deck is an absolute diversity killer because no matter what youíre doing in fair magic (other than Delver), youíre just playing something that loses to Hymn/SCM/Kcomm. Take away any need to play around Snapcaster/Plow (aka team Tundra) and DnT will find itself with plenty of space to beat Grixis Jammy Jams - space that no other creature deck will have, because they still have to play around team Tundra.

    Touch Terminus and Vial has to get banned immediately. You donít screw around with unchecked free mana in legacy, thatís even more concerning than Fetchlands.

  19. #21279

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    Also, I don't think it is more miserable to play vs D&T and being unable to cast a spell than for example a blue tempo deck that drops a delver on T1 and counters every spell you play or play vs mono red prison and have all of your spells cost 3 on first turn of the game.
    I find tempo much more fun to play against than DnT personally, but yes, Red Prison has many similar qualities to DnT that make them both miserable. I would say that DnT is more like stubbing all ten of your toes at once every time you try to do something, whereas Red Stompy/Spaghetti Stompy is more like Russian Roulette.

  20. #21280
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    SFM, Flickerwisp + Recruiter, Palace Jailer. This accounts for at least 1 in 6 cards of their deck.

    To finish your thoughts on strict-UW:
    -That color will become unplayable without Terminus
    -It will die specifically to DnT because of Vial making every attempt to wrath cost 6 land drops.
    -DnT will be the best creature deck in the format.
    -DnT will be the only played creature deck b/c itís the only one that can stop any attempt to wrath out of team Tundra.
    -DnT also has Mother of Runes which goes from Duress target counterspell -> Duress target spot removal -> transforms into Chalice x=spot removal.

    There is nothing healthy about Grixis ďcontrol.Ē That deck is an absolute diversity killer because no matter what youíre doing in fair magic (other than Delver), youíre just playing something that loses to Hymn/SCM/Kcomm. Take away any need to play around Snapcaster/Plow (aka team Tundra) and DnT will find itself with plenty of space to beat Grixis Jammy Jams - space that no other creature deck will have, because they still have to play around team Tundra.
    One point for you about CA in D&T :) Maybe it's now just missing the fetch + brainstorm Library manipulation that the blue shell offers :)

    About terminus, isn't it specifically this card that has made other creature decks tier 3?
    I don't think that goblins for example really feared wraths before terminus. Remember that terminus is a one mana wrath that denies death triggers and graveyard manipulations... this is way powerfull than for example a 4 mana color intensive supreme verdict or a 4 mana counterable wrath of god :)

    D&T was there before Terminus and it has never been a top dog before...
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