View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 1066 of 1068 FirstFirst ... 66566966101610561062106310641065106610671068 LastLast
Results 21,301 to 21,320 of 21351

Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21301
    Member
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    3,744

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    sure these cards see fringe play but they are really weak when compared to other creatures in the format. My thinking i that the best creatures should come from green. I still rather have a TNN than any of those you listed...and its not even blue. Glistener elf is actually good but only suitable for 1 deck.
    I don't think any of them see enough play to even warrant fringe, outside of Glistener Elf. My point is the same as yours: they aren't seeing play because they don't add anything that is better than TNN or Gurmag Angler. They have hexproof but are too small. They have infect, so it's a specific deck. It's not that they are weak threats, they are just conditional threats that only pertain to one phase of the game: combat. They are good but unplayable creatures (again, outside of Glistener Elf. Bad example.) I wasn't advocating for playing them, just making a minor point that they aren't bad as threats, just outclassed because they offer nothing more. If a creature doesn't offer something outside of combat it needs to be uber-efficient, so Gurmag is the benchmark.

    Look at Witchstalker. If it resolves against Grixis Delver it will be a 5/5 or bigger easily, within a turn. Still unplayable.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  2. #21302
    It's not easy being green

    Join Date

    Jul 2010
    Posts

    1,621

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    Survival of the Fittest is fair right now. If they unbanned it I don't think it would do anything except maybe make another cool Tier 2 deck.

    "Utility?"

    The reason he wrote it like he did is for the Reach, so that your Visionary can block Marit Lage and Delvers while you bounce it to get card advantage.
    The silly part is that Baleful Strix is still more loaded than that. >_>


    As far as the fixed DRSes, I think 1 damage per activation is too little. Simply making DRS cost G would do the card a lot of good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  3. #21303
    A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry.
    PirateKing's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2011
    Location

    BEST JERSEY
    Posts

    1,229

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I've said it before in DRS discussions before, if it was just limited to your graveyard ŕ la Grim Lavamancer it'd be good but safe. Gone would be the two-pronged offense of eating your opponent's Griselbrand or Lingering Souls and getting value; and you'd be resource limited much faster, especially on mana.

    Or print Grim Lavamancer saying two cards from any graveyard. I'd be happy with that too.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  4. #21304
    Land Destruction Enthusiast
    Megadeus's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2012
    Location

    Kennesaw, GA
    Posts

    5,231

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    A busted green creature:

    Mr. Fantastic Elf - GG
    Creature - Elf Mutant
    Reach
    When Mr. Fantastic enters the battlefield, draw a card
    1/1
    Make it a 2/1 so it can actually trade with a Delver. Otherwise this is really shitty strix
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  5. #21305
    Land Destruction Enthusiast
    Megadeus's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2012
    Location

    Kennesaw, GA
    Posts

    5,231

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    The silly part is that Baleful Strix is still more loaded than that. >_>


    As far as the fixed DRSes, I think 1 damage per activation is too little. Simply making DRS cost G would do the card a lot of good.
    Sorry for double post, but I think the utility of exiling spells is fine for only 1 damage. 2 damage meant that 2 Deathrite was a very real clock. I don't think I want everyone to have basically upgraded lavamancer available.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  6. #21306

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    My only issue with D&T is that its a creature based deck and their creatures are so much more useful than anything green really has to offer. Green is the color that should be creature based, although I realize that D&T creatures have that little bit of flair that makes them white, it is still odd to me that green doesn't really have a mono green beats that could come anywhere near D&T.

    Personally, I hate playing against it because as a dark depths player it is easily my worst match-up. However, I am happy that it is in the format to keep decks in check.



    Also, if survival of the fittest's mana cost was GGG instead of 1G, would it be fair? That would decrease its ability to be splashed and it would still hold true as a green card. Green just has not been the same without it.
    It's because white gets the best hate creatures while green is the best at big-beater / card-advantage creatures. The latter strategy just doesn't work in Legacy or even Modern really. Way too many broken things are happening for a non-disruptive, fair, creature-based strategy to get any traction.

    The bigger offender in this paradigm is the fact that black gets a 5/5 for 1 mana and blue gets a 3/2 flyer for 1 mana and a stupid card in TNN that should have never been printed. Since blue and black get the best aggro creatures it largely invalidates green in all of the blue decks.

    I wish they would open more design space for WR and GW to be competitive. If they made some pushed cards in those color that could generate some new decks or at the very least different combinations of splash colors for blue decks.

  7. #21307
    It's not easy being green

    Join Date

    Jul 2010
    Posts

    1,621

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Sorry for double post, but I think the utility of exiling spells is fine for only 1 damage. 2 damage meant that 2 Deathrite was a very real clock. I don't think I want everyone to have basically upgraded lavamancer available.
    The basically upgraded Lavamancer is the point. Make him eg. cost G to cast and only make BG if you want to try to make him off-limits for Grixis?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  8. #21308
    Site Contributor
    apple713's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2012
    Location

    Amherst, NY
    Posts

    1,993

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    It's because white gets the best hate creatures while green is the best at big-beater / card-advantage creatures. The latter strategy just doesn't work in Legacy or even Modern really. Way too many broken things are happening for a non-disruptive, fair, creature-based strategy to get any traction.

    The bigger offender in this paradigm is the fact that black gets a 5/5 for 1 mana and blue gets a 3/2 flyer for 1 mana and a stupid card in TNN that should have never been printed. Since blue and black get the best aggro creatures it largely invalidates green in all of the blue decks.

    I wish they would open more design space for WR and GW to be competitive. If they made some pushed cards in those color that could generate some new decks or at the very least different combinations of splash colors for blue decks.
    to be fair tho, black doesnt get a 5/5 for 1 mana. Its only 1 mana on like turn 3-5? Thats far less threatening. Whether it cost 1 or 4 tapping out to cast it on turn 3-5 doesnt make much of a difference unless you are holding counterspells.
    Currently Playing
    Legacy: Dark Depths
    EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid

    Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
    Currently looking for Beta duals - Find me on Magictraders.com as "Apple"

    why cards are so expensive...hoarders

  9. #21309

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    to be fair tho, black doesnt get a 5/5 for 1 mana. Its only 1 mana on like turn 3-5? Thats far less threatening. Whether it cost 1 or 4 tapping out to cast it on turn 3-5 doesnt make much of a difference unless you are holding counterspells.
    There's more you can do with your leftover mana than cast counter spells. Huge difference between tapping out for a 5/5 and tapping 1 mana for a 5/5 and following that up with a second play.

  10. #21310

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Ban Chalice of the Void! It's unfair to blue players everywhere!
    - 'Pathy' on MTGO
    - Eastern PA player

  11. #21311
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2015
    Location

    Chilltown
    Posts

    831

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    Ban Chalice of the Void! It's unfair to Burn and Elves and Dredge and Pox players everywhere!
    Fixed that for ya'.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  12. #21312

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Fixed that for ya'.
    As someone who has been playing Legacy for nearly 10 years and has never registered a deck without 4 Chalice of the Void in the main deck at any Legacy event, I have to say that burn and dredge actually have a higher win-rate vs. me than the entire conglomerate of blue decks does. Elves might be even, and I don't think I've ever seen Pox more than 2-3 times in the past 10 years.
    - 'Pathy' on MTGO
    - Eastern PA player

  13. #21313
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2015
    Location

    Chilltown
    Posts

    831

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    As someone who has been playing Legacy for nearly 10 years and has never registered a deck without 4 Chalice of the Void in the main deck at any Legacy event, I have to say that burn and dredge actually have a higher win-rate vs. me than the entire conglomerate of blue decks does. Elves might be even, and I don't think I've ever seen Pox more than 2-3 times in the past 10 years.
    As someone who has been playing Legacy for nearly six years and has never registered a deck with 4 Chalice of the Void in any format ever, I can say that my anecdotal evidence is better than yours.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  14. #21314
    Land Destruction Enthusiast
    Megadeus's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2012
    Location

    Kennesaw, GA
    Posts

    5,231

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    The basically upgraded Lavamancer is the point. Make him eg. cost G to cast and only make BG if you want to try to make him off-limits for Grixis?
    Yeah but why do we need an upgraded Lavamancer? If you want graveyard exiling shock, you should have to play Lavamancer
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  15. #21315
    Some dipshit of a Moderator.
    Dice_Box's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2013
    Location

    A Tabernacle in some random Valley.
    Posts

    4,724

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Burn has legs on Chalice decks because the mana base hurts.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  16. #21316
    Member
    pettdan's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2013
    Location

    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts

    411

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    This may be a peripheral discussion but still (a beggar can't choose, perhaps a legacy afficionado cannot be too picky). I wanted to add something that I thought might have been mentioned earlier in the discussion, and sure enough it's there in the first post's edit..

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    I think something like this could help green, non-elves decks become more viable:

    Good Times Ranger
    Casting cost: G
    Card type: Creature - Cleric Wizard
    Tap: Exile target land card from a graveyard. Add one mana of any color.
    B, Tap: Exile target instant or sorcery card from a graveyard. Each opponent loses 2 life.
    G, Tap: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. You gain 2 life.
    P/T: 0/1
    Flavor text: I'm back.

    Edit: Matsu's version below is probably more reasonably balanced. But remember, Deathrite was never really a problem before it got played in non-green decks (grixis specifically), I guess green centered decks need some high power level to even only be relevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
    Too stronk i have balanced it more ;)

    Good Times Ranger
    Casting cost: G
    Card type: Creature - Cleric Wizard
    Tap: Exile target land card from a graveyard. Add G.
    B, Tap: Exile target instant or sorcery card from a graveyard. Each opponent loses 1 life.
    G, Tap: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. You gain 2 life.
    P/T: 0/1
    Flavor text: I'm back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    As far as the fixed DRSes, I think 1 damage per activation is too little. Simply making DRS cost G would do the card a lot of good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Sorry for double post, but I think the utility of exiling spells is fine for only 1 damage. 2 damage meant that 2 Deathrite was a very real clock. I don't think I want everyone to have basically upgraded lavamancer available.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    The basically upgraded Lavamancer is the point. Make him eg. cost G to cast and only make BG if you want to try to make him off-limits for Grixis?
    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Yeah but why do we need an upgraded Lavamancer? If you want graveyard exiling shock, you should have to play Lavamancer
    I'll just repeat that as long as Deathrite was not played in Grixis Delver or Grixis Control, most people (not all) didn't have a problem with it. Its powerlevel was very reasonable in Maverick, The Rock, Deadguy Ale, MOST, and even BUG Delver variants [edit: and Elves too, this deck was never demolishing the format]. That last one is rather surprising actually, BUG Delver was not too good but Grixis Delver was. I guess this may have something to do with the interaction between Gitaxian Probe and Young Pyromancer (Cabal Therapy lost favor, iirc, maybe Gurmag should be added here too), and this strong synergy of the deck has been addressed now, too. So, even if Deathrite deals two damage to the opponent's face, we already have very clear evidence on this not being far too strong for Legacy, I'd say. I agree that weakening it this way, letting it deal 1 damage only, would still leave it a very useful creature and thus should be done.

    Edit: the point I'm making here is that the effects of Deathrite were fine, as shown by the empirical evidence of how the format turned out which could be easily recognized from the DtB section. It was only the too flexible casting cost, allowing play in Grixis decks, that made it a problem. Probably it would benefit from being a bit weaker, like dealing less damage to the opponent, but even in its super strong form it didn't make most green decks t1. So you could even argue that fair green decks needed this power level to stand a chance, this is the type of creature green needs to be relevant next to the blue shell. It was apparently still too weak to make the difference.

    When it comes to Grim Lavamancer, its power lies more in board control than dealing 2 damage to the opponent, and this aspect Deathrite lacks, so I think comparing with Lavamancer is to some extent relevant but not very relevant.
    Currently playing/brewing: Painter, Tezzeret, Bomberman, Planeswalker Nic Fit, Bizarro Stormy, MOST and then some.

  17. #21317
    It's not easy being green

    Join Date

    Jul 2010
    Posts

    1,621

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I mean, the tension in Delver was that classically, green offered you beats, red speed and black better removal and if you played slower, GB had raw CA and big beats. You had to choose two, which is why RUG and BUG had such distinct character. Green was the weakest color in the pile, though, sans DRS' improved ability to play long and big. The dream was always to get both red speed and good black removal. Now with Angler, Pyromancer and TNN, you don't have to choose. Playing Green is shooting yourself in the foot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  18. #21318
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    1,006

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    Green was the weakest color in the pile, though, sans DRS' improved ability to play long and big. The dream was always to get both red speed and good black removal. Now with Angler, Pyromancer and TNN, you don't have to choose. Playing Green is shooting yourself in the foot.
    This was certainly true when DRS was legal (Grixis being best Delver deck), but at this point Grixis Delver is just a deck with 4x Delver which is more or less small Grixis “control“ featuring Wasteland, rather than a real Delver deck. Playing Wasteland and Daze in a deck that wants the game to go long (playing around 3x TNN and being unable to reliably open with a threat) is inherently suspect.

    Even though small Grixis has enough generically good cards to float around tier 1.5-ish, the comment about playing green in Delver should be revisited. DRS is gone and they just printed Cindervines into an actual Delver deck (8x turn 1 threats, RUG Delver). RUG is still less winning than small Grixis (because it‘s gone longer without a creature upgrade), but they had a new avenue opened in terms of ways to play a true Delver strategy. Green now represents a proactive [count to 20] tool which also counts as something like Pernicious Deed for anything [actual] Delver cared about. If they print a creature to replace Goose or Goyf (only a matter of time since green gets the best rates), there‘s going to be some meaningful innovation possible. As long as DRS is banned, green is going to remain the color of most latent potential rather than liability.

  19. #21319

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    If they ever banned Terminus, they'd have to ban Vial. It's not really acceptable to have DnT making wraths cost 6 [Port/Thalia] +/- Wastelands. Otherwise you'd need an unconditional 3 mana sorc speed wrath, or a 4 mana unconditional instant speed one. As always, ban CB and unban SDT - combo can make miracles stop playing so many white cards, aggro has comprehensively failed to make miracles stop playing Counterbalance.
    Ban Vial lol. I can't tell if you're serious or not.

  20. #21320
    Member
    talpa's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2016
    Location

    Italy
    Posts

    127

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    FLAME PLEASE!
    Ah, the smell of napalm in the morning!

    The best decks in legacy might not be playing-brainstorm

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Huang
    Brainstorm decks make up 57.6% of the winner’s metagame, which is by far the lowest I have ever seen it since I started tracking metagame results in 2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Huang
    Legacy is more balanced than it has ever been, and it’s because the non-Brainstorm decks have access to more broken mana plays than the Brainstorm decks (...)
    All in all, Legacy is in the most diverse place it has been since the printing of Delver of Secrets, and possibly ever. I expect we will look back on this time as an exciting era of Legacy where you can really play anything

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 6 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 6 guests)