All B/R update speculation.

[Gheizen64]

Show and tell and abrupt decay are very good but okay. Deathrite shaman has a way bigger but yet subtle impact on the format. They won't ever ban this card but it is really too overpowered for what it is.

What the hell is this. Now because they make a non-dead after T3 mana dork people complain? Boo-hoo now not only blue has 8+ 1cmc cards that are good early, mid and late, may the blue overlords save us /rant

If anything they should print more cards like DRS to give other reasons to people to run black and red decks.

[Zombie]

"One of the dumbest ways to win the game ever is fine, a tool for grinding advantage that needs constant mana investment to do anything isn't."

...wtf.

[Einherjer]

I find it hillarious how 2 of 3 shamandecks are blue, namely BUG and Deathblade with Jund being the nonblue one. And people still complain.

[Dice_Box]

I find it hillarious how 2 of 3 shamandecks are blue, namely BUG and Deathblade with Jund being the nonblue one. And people still complain.

He is a 4 of in elves.

[Kayradis]

He is a 4 of in elves.

He should be a 4 of in everything.

[Zombie]

4 DRS mandatory in TES, you heard it here first.

[Kayradis]

4 DRS mandatory in TES, you heard it here first.

Alright.
Disregard my last.
You got that one.

[Piceli89]

Show and tell and abrupt decay are very good but okay. Deathrite shaman has a way bigger but yet subtle impact on the format. They won't ever ban this card but it is really too overpowered for what it is.

+200, I wish at least that they were conscious of printing an evidently overpowered card. Perhaps the original goal was to give those colous an efficient critter to hose graveyard-based strategies, but they went really too far.

If it was another mistake, then they really are dumb.

[Gheizen64]

Now i see why some people just don't see the arguments in favor of banning brainstorm. They just think everything should be blue.

[JanoschEausH]

Where am I? People arguing for the banning of a fun and fair card in form of DRS while they believe something unfair, unfun and broken as Show and Tell should stay untouched. Weird world.

[Zombie]

Menendian actually believes that SnT makes the format more interesting. The things Vintage will do to you O_o

[HPB_Eggo]

If you ask me, SnT both makes the format more interesting and keeps it more diverse.

Why?

Well, what decks are beaten by SnT? It's a lot. Most everything that's slower and isn't blue has a bad SnT matchup. You'd think removing it would enable decks that are otherwise good to flourish, but it really won't. Here's why...

1) Storm and whatnot are still here to punish those decks.

2) If Storm and other fast combo were also gone, the format would just turn into nothing but the premier 'fair' deck: Jund.

Legacy is a format with a very higher power level in available cards and strategies, and the only real way to 'balance' it without turning it into Modern is to pit those very powerful cards and strategies against each other in the right way. DRS and SnT are both excellent cards and they both do a solid job in keeping the format from degenerating, at least as of the moment. Right now you have a pretty decent balance between combo decks, decks that do well against combo, and decks that do well against everything but combo - otherwise known as combo, midrange, tempo, and control/aggro-control/control-with-combo-finish. If they could find a way to also insert some good aggro decks in that pie we'd have all the important archetypes represented, so, at least IMO, the most important thing WotC could do for Legacy is print some very powerful W, R, or G cards and a handful of very strong agressive/disruptive creatures a la Thalia. No bannings required.

[clavio]

Menendian actually believes that SnT makes the format more interesting. The things Vintage will do to you O_o

He also thinks that miracle time walk is the greatest card ever printed.

[Lemnear]

He also thinks that miracle time walk is the greatest card ever printed.

That thing was hilarious and I was hitting him back then and after with Temporal Mastery nonsense. He advocated for years that Vintage is fine under the omnipressure of Lodestone Golem but had to accept he was wrong and Vintage is in a death struggle between MUD and Dredge.

But those are things of the past and from a Vintage Players Perspective (which I share) he's kinda right. S&T isn't the Kind of deck Survial, Flash or others were, not in numbers, not in results. The reason might be the pricetag, dunno. The question in S&T's case is, how acceptable WotC and the Players think a 3-mana-2-card combo is for Legacy, considering how much harder to play and easier to hate other forms of Legacy combo are. I want to remind Infernal->Ad Nauseam costs 7 mana despite being a one-card-combo.

[Zombie]

If you ask me, SnT both makes the format more interesting and keeps it more diverse.

Why?

Well, what decks are beaten by SnT? It's a lot. Most everything that's slower and isn't blue has a bad SnT matchup. You'd think removing it would enable decks that are otherwise good to flourish, but it really won't. Here's why...

1) Storm and whatnot are still here to punish those decks.

2) If Storm and other fast combo were also gone, the format would just turn into nothing but the premier 'fair' deck: Jund.

Legacy is a format with a very higher power level in available cards and strategies, and the only real way to 'balance' it without turning it into Modern is to pit those very powerful cards and strategies against each other in the right way. DRS and SnT are both excellent cards and they both do a solid job in keeping the format from degenerating, at least as of the moment. Right now you have a pretty decent balance between combo decks, decks that do well against combo, and decks that do well against everything but combo - otherwise known as combo, midrange, tempo, and control/aggro-control/control-with-combo-finish. If they could find a way to also insert some good aggro decks in that pie we'd have all the important archetypes represented, so, at least IMO, the most important thing WotC could do for Legacy is print some very powerful W, R, or G cards and a handful of very strong agressive/disruptive creatures a la Thalia. No bannings required.

These metagame benefits are all given already by Storm and Elves, for example (ANT and Elves popular/good enough for DTB status, too, so they have actual metagame impact), and also Reanimator and Dredge. Meanwhile, Show and Tell occupies the same metagame slot, is infinitely more dumb to play, can afford to run cards like Leyline of Sanctity that blank an entire form of hate for no mana investment and generally speaking has to be hated out much more specifically than other combo decks. And even if you have hate, Omnitell is so dumb it probably recovers.

That's the thing. It keeps the meta roughly the same, just adds extra dumb and boredom.

[Tammit67]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck..._num=0&limit=8

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...eckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=2013-06-23&end_date=2013-06-23&start=1&finish=16&exp=43&city=Philadelphia&state=PA&country=US

Where are all the show and tell decks if the cards is really such a problem? Could people have gasp adapted to it?

Just because a deck is easy to win with does not make it easy to play. And it suffers from a variety of hate strategies (judging by results, not even anecdotal evidence!) ranging from Thalia to discard to counters to faster engine based combo that we have a meta that we have several decks prepared to fight every other deck in the room on several axes (The plural of Axis no matter how wrong it looks) and making a pretty balanced meta if you ignore the fact you need to interact with things other than simply creatures so faster aggro and weak disruption creature based decks get mainly left out of higher placed finishes.

I don't see an issue, and I believe firmly there is not currently an issue with the format: only annoying decks people don't want to play against and an unwillingness/inability to adapt to meta trends

[dunk]

Where are all the show and tell decks if the cards is really such a problem? Could people have gasp adapted to it?

I wouldn't call it adaption but netdecking... "Wow, no SnT deck at first place of the last SCG? Let's deconstructed this crappy pile and slap some with Deathblade!"

Anyway, format is fine right now and needs no bans. Deathrite is cool, finally a playable Mox!

[jamis]

The question in S&T's case is, how acceptable WotC and the Players think a 3-mana-2-card combo is for Legacy, considering how much harder to play and easier to hate other forms of Legacy combo are. I want to remind Infernal->Ad Nauseam costs 7 mana despite being a one-card-combo.

I think a 2-card combo for 3 mana is perfectly acceptable in comparison to other legal combos. Infernal Tutor + LED into Ad Nauseam is a 4 mana combo. Entomb + Reanimate is 2 mana and some life, or replace reanimate with exhume/shallow grave to make it on par with S&T. Painter/Grindstone is 6 mana over 3 turns, but also sees less play than the other 3 mentioned. The one mana less than IT+LED seems fine, since you're now at risk of letting your opponent put in a card that could beat you. The one mana more than reanimator is a substitute for not using the graveyard. The card seems to fall right in line with where I believe legacy combo decks should be.

[bondfan]

I honestly think Show and Tell is fine. People, myself included just don't like to losing to HERP DERP SHOW AND TELL I WIN? But I guess that's the direction Wizards wants to go if you look at other formats.

[Lemnear]

I think a 2-card combo for 3 mana is perfectly acceptable in comparison to other legal combos. Infernal Tutor + LED into Ad Nauseam is a 4 mana combo. Entomb + Reanimate is 2 mana and some life, or replace reanimate with exhume/shallow grave to make it on par with S&T. Painter/Grindstone is 6 mana over 3 turns, but also sees less play than the other 3 mentioned. The one mana less than IT+LED seems fine, since you're now at risk of letting your opponent put in a card that could beat you. The one mana more than reanimator is a substitute for not using the graveyard. The card seems to fall right in line with where I believe legacy combo decks should be.

That's a wacky math to call Infernal into Ad Nauseam a 4-mana-combo even with LED. Even if you take it that way, Ad Nauseam strickly Limits your designspace within the deck and has no substitutes like S&T deck's have in either Sneak attack and Dream Halls in combination with multiple targets.

I doubt it's a positive sign for the players if you give them the choice of These 4 combos:

- a 6-mana-2-card painter Stone
- a 3-mana-2-card S&T and perm x
- a 4-mana-2-card Infernal + LED (often Screen yourself of get massive hate)
- a 3-mana-2-card entomb/c.study + exhume/animate (more combo cardtypes (3 instead to 2 in S&T) and Dog to DRS/RIP)

This IS a easy pick.