View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #18161
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rascalyote View Post
    Also asking for a ban on a card that sees 36%~ play vs a card that sees 56%~ play seems silly even if brainstorm is 'untouchable'.
    It's even more silly if you look at how many decks play 6-8 Fetchlands. All cards talked here are only strong because of these little helpers everyone abuses, but barely anyone points the finger at
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  2. #18162
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    This thread is impressive. I pop in every now and then and it's consistently the same people saying the same things, years on end.

    Tusk guys - 'ban derpstorm'
    Lemnear - 'ban fetches (I was the first to say this, I swear!)'
    Crimhead - 'everything is fine'
    Dice - 'I love lands!'
    Megadeus - 'burp'
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    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  3. #18163

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    you sir have just won this thread, gz!

  4. #18164
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Maybe Wotc should focus on a more Hearthstone like approach to the bans.

    Blizzard made a statement a couple of month about Sylvanas Windrunner and Ragnaros the Firelord, Azure Drake, Ice Lance, Conceal and Power Overwhelming :
    Our overall intention with Standard is to keep the game feeling fresh for all of our players, and to allow newer players to jump into Hearthstone quickly, without collecting lots of cards to build a competitive deck. Standard also gives our developers more freedom when designing new cards for the future.
    For those who don’t know those cards were part of a set which will always be playable in draft and standard.
    I understand they are talking about their flagship format which is standard, similar bans also happened in Mtg Standard format.

    Will this be applicable to Magic the gathering older formats.
    From my personal point of view, I am little bit tired by the stagnation in the decks, not the metagame. It don’t have a problem to play against 3 Grixis delver decks in a row. What concerns me is all Grixis delver or Sneak & Show have 99% of the decks very similar, maybe 4 or 3 cards different. I think there is a lack of innovation in the decks.

    If for example instead of banning Show and Tell, we ban Emrakul and Grizzlybrand.
    Show and tell decks will not die, but will be open to experiments with other new and old cards.
    Same can apply to Jace TMS/Liliana otV. Will decks that use those cards will start to experiment with new Planeswalker.
    We might go even more extreme here, instead of banning DRS and Brainstorm, ban all the Fetchlands. This will significantly reduce the power of those cards.
    I am just curious if this will positively affect the format.

    I know this is a very radical and innovative attitude to the bans, but this might be the only solution to attract new players, to this format. Especially now when Pauper is becoming more popular then legacy and some stores already started doing Team Constructed Standard/Modern/Pauper instead of the Legacy.

    Coming back to bans/unbans:
    If Deathrite Shaman and Surgical is so omnipresent maybe Survival of the fittest should be unbanned
    Same will apply to Grizzlybrand and Yawgmoth’Bargain, in my opinion Grizzly is more powerful thanks to legs.
    We all know BS and DRS are powerful cards in the format, but I will be extremely happy with TNN banned.

    A new poll will be great.

    Just my two cents.

  5. #18165
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    This thread is impressive. I pop in every now and then and it's consistently the same people saying the same things, years on end.

    Tusk guys - 'ban derpstorm'
    Lemnear - 'ban fetches (I was the first to say this, I swear!)'
    Crimhead - 'everything is fine'
    Dice - 'I love lands!'
    Megadeus - 'burp'
    Are fetchlands just another variation of kicker?

    Asking for a friend.
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    I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    My original post did that.

    I'd love to have a battle of wits with you but I see you lack the necessary equipment.

    Good day.

  6. #18166
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ubernostrum View Post
    Your option is, as I've suggested previously, to play Modern. Brainstorm has never been legal there and never will be, and the rest of the "cantrip cartel" is on the banned list. I wish you luck in that format.

    If you want to talk about Legacy, though, sooner or later you have to acknowledge that there simply is no point to bringing up Brainstorm. We know it's legal, we know there are people who believe with fiery passion that it should be banned, and we know Wizards will never ban it. So what's the point of endless non sequiturs about Brainstorm? Why keep derailing discussion of whether there's something that can be done to improve the format within the constraints we know Wizards is imposing on it? Folks who do this are basically just Cato the Elder at this point, throwing random "BRAINSTORM DELENDA EST" interjections into every conversation.
    With all due respect, DRS is also currently banned in Modern, so if we're suggesting people change formats then you are free to take your own advice.

    Okay now that that cheap shot is out of the way, what's the point of any of this? Nothing we say or do will cause any change, you need to be internet famous for that. If WotC would make an official statement on the card then I'm sure we'd see less complaining. As it stands it feels like a joke every time some non-instant speed piece of card draw/selection gets banned (bad opinion time: during the Treasure Cruise era I though "now would be the perfect time to ban Brainstorm" only for the other terror of the format to get hit).

  7. #18167
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Dice - 'I love lands!'
    And here I thought I was being subtle, how did you work it out?
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  8. #18168

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I feel the format is better off having the hate DRS brings in the main than we are without it.
    I feel this way about brainstorm, except replace "hate" with "consistency" - losing a game because you just happened to draw bad is the only thing more miserable than losing to chalice. I do agree that maybe brainstorm is a bit too powerful for that role, but I'd still rather have it (and have my opponents have it) than the alternative.

    Edit: also Whitefaces #nailedit

  9. #18169
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Let's get a new poll in here. I'm curious to see if the most vocal and outspoken members' opinions line up with those of the silent majority.

    Edit: I look up and see Goblin Lackey as a choice in our old poll

  10. #18170
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    So a new poll would look like this?

    Deathrite Shaman
    Brainstorm
    True-Name Nemesis
    Griselbrand
    Emrakul
    Show and Tell
    Terminus
    Fetchlands
    Brainstorm Realist

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  11. #18171
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The issue with that idea is, people like myself think TNN should go while also admitting its not actually doing a ton. I hate the card and think its trash that never should have been printed and I want them all used as fuel to keep orphans warm. That said I do not actually think that the card is of a sufficient power level to actually be removed from Legacy.

    I think some might feel the same way about DRS. Feeling that the card is not actually worthy of a ban while thinking the format would be better without it.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
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    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
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  12. #18172

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    So a new poll would look like this?

    Deathrite Shaman
    Brainstorm
    True-Name Nemesis
    Griselbrand
    Emrakul
    Show and Tell
    Terminus
    Fetchlands
    I think you could add dark depth and led in the list. As for myself I don't find TNN and terminus (now that top is gone) broken.
    But if DRS get banned reanimator (so you would need to ban grisou) and lands would have way less hate.

  13. #18173
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    The issue with that idea is, people like myself think TNN should go while also admitting its not actually doing a ton. I hate the card and think its trash that never should have been printed and I want them all used as fuel to keep orphans warm. That said I do not actually think that the card is of a sufficient power level to actually be removed from Legacy.

    I think some might feel the same way about DRS. Feeling that the card is not actually worthy of a ban while thinking the format would be better without it.
    There's always an inherent risk of people misunderstanding the question, even if it's blatantly spelled out for them. Just create the poll, limit answers to one per person, then add an option for "No bans needed in legacy" at the bottom.

  14. #18174
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    The issue with that idea is, people like myself think TNN should go while also admitting its not actually doing a ton. I hate the card and think its trash that never should have been printed and I want them all used as fuel to keep orphans warm. That said I do not actually think that the card is of a sufficient power level to actually be removed from Legacy.

    I think some might feel the same way about DRS. Feeling that the card is not actually worthy of a ban while thinking the format would be better without it.
    Same issues as the last poll then, honestly. Tarmogoyf, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Standstill, and Natural Order were all on the last list and they are all laughable now (in terms of breaking the format.) But at the time there were strong feelings in both directions on those cards.

    I think for me the most troubling part of the new ban precedent/cycle is that there is always a target. Modern is the strongest culprit behind this way of thinking with it's torrid history of bannings, unbannings, re-bannings, and general bitching about the format in general. I'm not saying I don't like Modern, I love it and play it often, but I think we all have to admit that the heavy-handed approach from WOTC on Modern has significantly changed the paradigm on how eternal formats are managed.
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  15. #18175

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Rather than a new "what should be banned" poll that is subject to logistical issues of missing cards that people think should be on the poll but aren't listed. Why not make a "what should be Unbanned" poll. You have a distinct list that no one can argue with because it is listed on the wotc site.

  16. #18176

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    The issue with that idea is, people like myself think TNN should go while also admitting its not actually doing a ton. I hate the card and think its trash that never should have been printed and I want them all used as fuel to keep orphans warm. That said I do not actually think that the card is of a sufficient power level to actually be removed from Legacy.

    I think some might feel the same way about DRS. Feeling that the card is not actually worthy of a ban while thinking the format would be better without it.
    This is exactly what I meant a few weeks (?) ago when I was talking about Chalice of the Void

  17. #18177
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I think True Name has a warping effect simply by existing by basically forcing you into certain colors or strategies. It's basically the main reason I gave up on Maverick. When a fair deck can cast a creature that can invalidate entire attacking strategies while also being nearly impossible to interact well with in a couple colors it really skews deck choice in a certain way. I'm not saying the card is unbeatable, but I played far too many games where I worked my way into a good position and my opponent simply dropped a stupid creature that can infinitely block, I can't actually interact with, and can simply attack past my team and lost because of it. The card is fucking miserable and really takes away from any game that it is used in. The format really has gone downhill since that card came in in my personal opinion. It really makes the supposed interactive games between fair decks into incredibly boring uninteractive games and to me has forced me to either play a deck that also plays the card so we can walk past each others true name (much excite, so fun), or play an uninteractive combo deck that ignores the card completely, which is also not how I'd like to play magic most of the time. All in all I think the card is really bad for the format and makes what used to be interactive mid range mirrors into boring snoozefests that may as well be belcher mirrors
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  18. #18178

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I think True Name has a warping effect simply by existing by basically forcing you into certain colors or strategies. It's basically the main reason I gave up on Maverick. When a fair deck can cast a creature that can invalidate entire attacking strategies while also being nearly impossible to interact well with in a couple colors it really skews deck choice in a certain way. I'm not saying the card is unbeatable, but I played far too many games where I worked my way into a good position and my opponent simply dropped a stupid creature that can infinitely block, I can't actually interact with, and can simply attack past my team and lost because of it. The card is fucking miserable and really takes away from any game that it is used in. The format really has gone downhill since that card came in in my personal opinion. It really makes the supposed interactive games between fair decks into incredibly boring uninteractive games and to me has forced me to either play a deck that also plays the card so we can walk past each others true name (much excite, so fun), or play an uninteractive combo deck that ignores the card completely, which is also not how I'd like to play magic most of the time. All in all I think the card is really bad for the format and makes what used to be interactive mid range mirrors into boring snoozefests that may as well be belcher mirrors
    Agree with all of the above.

    I've had too many good games come to an abrupt and boring end due to that card. I guess the same could be said of Moon and Chalice, though not having a real deckbuilding drawback is just stupid.
    Lands, MUD, Stax, and Miracles.

  19. #18179

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    a very nice post
    I don't think I could say it better than this. It's really hard to argue for playing almost any 'fair' strategy that doesn't include this card; it really plays some of the most unfair 'fair' Magic imaginable. It's certainly true that the format can 'handle' the card, and it would certainly be a stretch saying the card warps the metagame, but I'd say it's hard to argue the format would be worse off if it were gone.

    I feel like this is kind of a trend in many cards in the format (at least, I feel this way). There's a lot of stuff that's just so annoyingly efficient that it seems to edge a lot of possibilities out of contention. I feel like a lot of these problems are exacerbated by a card like DRS: when a deck can get insane value out of such small amounts of mana, utility ramp like DRS appears to be the problem by accelerating decks while still being valuable in its own right. I'm kind of on a tangent, but I got here because I feel the issue is with cards like TNN, that are simply too valuable or good that they warp some sideboards into containing some worse cards because it's otherwise impossible to deal with.

    As an aside, I actually really like DRS in it's own right in the format. It's kind of nice to have some sort of maindeckable graveyard hate that extremely-dedicated graveyard decks can still fight through.

  20. #18180

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Yup, Megadeus got the problem that is True-Name Nemesis down. I know I've made similar arguments before to friends, but I'd also like to ask what True-Name actually adds to the format? The only benefit I can think of is that Merfolk is 1.1% of the metagame. And if that's the case, why not just ban TNN and print a card in a Conspiracy set that does the same thing TNN, but give it a tribal restriction? e.g Can't cast this card unless you control a Merfolk. If that happened, I'm sure more cards become playable. Maybe Stoneblade lists start playing Geist of Saint Traft again, or Vendilion Clique, or Mirran Crusader, or maybe even try out Spell Queller.

    The difference with Deathrite Shaman is that the card does positive things for Legacy. Jund, Junk, Shardless BUG, Food Chain, Aluren, etc. are all cool decks that exist because of DRS (other decks like Maverick and Elves don't NEED DRS to survive, but they are better for it). The problem is that Grixis Delver, Czech Pile, Grixis Pyromancer, and Deathblade play Deathrite. UBx decks just don't need a mana dork. Just ban DRS and change it to:

    Fixed Deathrite
    G
    Creature - Elf Shaman
    0/1
    T: Exile a land from gy. Add a mana of any color...
    B,tap: Exile instant or sorcery. Each opponent loses 1 life.
    B, tap: Exile a creature. You gain 2 life.

    Now, DRS can't be cast off of Underground Sea, UB decks can't splash two colors for free, and GBx decks have a more unique card that helps them interact. I'm not sure how popular my solution of ban card A -> print card B would be, but I will argue it'd be the cleanest solution.

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