View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #18221

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I'll echo the lengthy post about the consequences of each ban with one about unbans:

    Goblin Recruiter: Welcome back to tier 2, Goblins!
    Frantic Search: Welcome back to tier 3, High Tide! Also U/G post can also make a comeback, which is cool.
    Earthcraft: Welcome back to tier 2, Enchantress!
    Mind Twist: Welcome to tier 2...Pox, I guess?
    Survival of the Fittest: Maverick may become a thing again, which is nice. Also some weird Madness or Ooze brews become viable, if not competitive.
    Sensei's Divining Top: Miracles becomes the top deck again and honestly it wasn't worse than the 3-4c amalgams we currently have now. I also miss Painter.
    Timetwister, Wheel of Fortune: Absolutely nothing happens. Draw 7s are bad, they see no play in Vintage for a reason.
    Yawgmoth's Bargain: I'm honestly not sure this is a straight replacement for Ad Nauseam. The extra mana and life (since the averagz CMC of a storm deck is typically less than 1) are not negligible. It's probably pretty strong though.
    Bazaar of Baghdad: Dredge would obviously break the format in half but it would be hilarious to see. Cue players scrambling for their gravehate and filling half their sideboards with it, reducing the available space for other matchups and increasing the 'matchup lottery' aspect...it would make the format much more wide open but much more susceptible to variance like Modern, something that brewers like but pros and serious spikes hate.
    Mishra's Workshop: similar to dredge in terms of format breaking, but less hilarious.
    Balance: it's obviously broken but I have no idea what kind of decks will emerge around that. It'd be pretty cool to see stuff revolving around Greater Gargadon and Titania but we'll probably end up with a boring U/W control thingy that's even worse than pre-ban Miracles.
    Flash: is the Hulk combo that threatening in this day and age? Yeah I guess that no one likes a turn-1 combo enabler getting the nod but it's not like good hate hasn't been printed ever since, especially stuff like Leyline or RiP silently hoses it. The format can probably handle it but it'll be less fun.
    Mystical Tutor: same as above, yeah sure S&T and Storm get more consistent but it's really a matter of people hating tier 1 combo decks
    Library of Alexandria: free card draw for everyone! Plus it doesn't actually stifle diversity or take slots since it's a land, right?

    The rest is just straight up upgrades of existing (and already powerful) cards, not as interesting to discuss. I'd like to see a format where Memory Jar is legal as a 4 of though. Poor card never saw the light of legality.

  2. #18222

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_D View Post
    They didn't unban shit when top got the axe though.
    A fair point!

    My bet for their reasoning on this one is that top was a popular enough ban that Wizards felt that they didn't need to "trade" for it in terms of goodwill, so to speak. I still would rather have them banned terminus or something, but that ship has sailed.

  3. #18223
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    A fair point!

    My bet for their reasoning on this one is that top was a popular enough ban that Wizards felt that they didn't need to "trade" for it in terms of goodwill, so to speak. I still would rather have them banned terminus or something, but that ship has sailed.
    $100 the process was something similar to this.

    Head guys on the B/R Panel: "there's a sign out front, let's just ban top and move on, my lunch isn't going to eat itself"

    Eager beaver junior: "Anything to unban?"

    Head Guys:



    The point to take from this is that Wotc = Kruger Industrial Smoothing
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
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    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

  4. #18224
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I think after tonight I'm done with this format as long as true name exists. The card is fucking miserable. I realize it's never going to be banned so fuck it. I can't do it anymore. I just dropped at 1-1 at local because the card kills any interesting interaction that exists in a fair game of Magic for little cost.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  5. #18225
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I think after tonight I'm done with this format as long as true name exists. The card is fucking miserable. I realize it's never going to be banned so fuck it. I can't do it anymore. I just dropped at 1-1 at local because the card kills any interesting interaction that exists in a fair game of Magic for little cost.
    That’s your problem, who comes to Legacy to play fair? Just play something broken, ignore the card, and win the game instead of worrying about a three-power vanilla creature for 1UU.

  6. #18226
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I won a match on modo tonight by deliberately timing out a miracles player. OP was playing slow with double CB plus Search so I started this subgame with 12 minutes remaining.Turns out slow miracles players are slow w or w/o top... Weird how time is a consistent resource online g1/2/3.

    Situation vs. dredge otp. OP had a good t1 loot. I needed to draw well with a brainstorm and did better than well ftw (I play ANT). I typed "good brainstorm" noting my luck and then he conceded the match after shaming me for bragging. Funny because I was just commenting on my luck but he must be in the "ban brainstorm" camp and had no tolerance for my BS.

    Crazy game with crazy players.

    #freetop

  7. #18227
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I don't want to have 3 thousand dollars spent on a deck that I just take too weekly events to not interact with my opponent. I honestly don't know how the show and apes do it. Like you must be a completely brain dead moron to enjoy hurr durr Griselchimp every week.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  8. #18228

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I don't want to have 3 thousand dollars spent on a deck that I just take too weekly events to not interact with my opponent. I honestly don't know how the show and apes do it. Like you must be a completely brain dead moron to enjoy hurr durr Griselchimp every week.
    I dont get this kind of thinking. If you honestly dislike combo play modern. I'd consider t1 force check decks like TES and BR reanimator to be even more brainless by your standards, and they're all over the meta as well. This is legacy, there are other forms of magic that limit this style of play, so go play that.

  9. #18229

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkfrosting View Post
    If you honestly dislike combo play modern.
    Turn 2 Baral reeeeee

  10. #18230

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Turn 2 Baral reeeeee
    A combo deck that is vulnerable to grave hate, creature removal, and countermagic and takes 3-4 turns to go off isn't really comparable to legacy combo, but I see your point. I mean they have scapeshift too but the format is a lot more fair.

    Also the rock paper scissors effect is less apparent in modern. While in legacy there are archetypes that have access to 0 tools to deal with show and tell efficiently, just about every modern archetype has access to ways of improving combo match ups post board.

  11. #18231

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkfrosting View Post
    A combo deck that is vulnerable to grave hate, creature removal, and countermagic and takes 3-4 turns to go off isn't really comparable to legacy combo, but I see your point. I mean they have scapeshift too but the format is a lot more fair.

    Also the rock paper scissors effect is less apparent in modern. While in legacy there are archetypes that have access to 0 tools to deal with show and tell efficiently, just about every modern archetype has access to ways of improving combo match ups post board.
    Well technically any deck can play Ashen Rider or Confusion in the Ranks or whatever if they really don't like SNT (Ensnaring Bridge is perhaps a more realistic example)

    What you say about modern is sort of true but there are so many different linear/proactive decks in Modern. The more combo hate you play the more artifact hate you lose, and if you add shatterstorm then maybe you have to cut blood moon etc etc, so it's hard to cover every axis and this creates its own very noticeable 'rock paper scissors' effect

  12. #18232

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Well technically any deck can play Ashen Rider or Confusion in the Ranks or whatever if they really don't like SNT (Ensnaring Bridge is perhaps a more realistic example)

    What you say about modern is sort of true but there are so many different linear/proactive decks in Modern. The more combo hate you play the more artifact hate you lose, and if you add shatterstorm then maybe you have to cut blood moon etc etc, so it's hard to cover every axis and this creates its own very noticeable 'rock paper scissors' effect
    I think a variety of archetypes with various match up weights that keep each other in check is inherent to the game design in magic, so yes it is a factor in modern as well. But the format is slower and there aren't as many matchups where simply sitting down across the table from the wrong deck decides the match. This is a cost of playing a format with less restrictive banlist. Vintage has even more of this

  13. #18233
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkfrosting View Post
    I dont get this kind of thinking. If you honestly dislike combo play modern. I'd consider t1 force check decks like TES and BR reanimator to be even more brainless by your standards, and they're all over the meta as well. This is legacy, there are other forms of magic that limit this style of play, so go play that.
    I don't think his post was so much about fair vs combo matchups as much as how fair vs fair matchups have degenerated as a result of Dumb Blue Creatures™️ like True Ape.

    Sure, when you sleeve up a deck like Junk, Maverick, Deadguy, Jund you're gonna be a dog to fast combo and have some nongames where you don't get to interact. Part and parcel of the Legacy metagame. But you expect to have longer, more interactive, interesting games against fair decks playing some fundamental Magic. Then they drop a 3-mana Progenitals into your mouth and your Goyf or Knight or whatever pet card you're running looks like a steaming turd and all of your interaction doesn't do shit. So not only are you getting clowned on by a good portion of the meta with little-to-no counterplay, but your traditionally good matchups have a chance of just dumpstering you with one stupid card that has virtually no deckbuilding constraints.

  14. #18234

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape View Post
    I don't think his post was so much about fair vs combo matchups as much as how fair vs fair matchups have degenerated as a result of Dumb Blue Creatures™️ like True Ape.

    Sure, when you sleeve up a deck like Junk, Maverick, Deadguy, Jund you're gonna be a dog to fast combo and have some nongames where you don't get to interact. Part and parcel of the Legacy metagame. But you expect to have longer, more interactive, interesting games against fair decks playing some fundamental Magic. Then they drop a 3-mana Progenitals into your mouth and your Goyf or Knight or whatever pet card you're running looks like a steaming turd and all of your interaction doesn't do shit. So not only are you getting clowned on by a good portion of the meta with little-to-no counterplay, but your traditionally good matchups have a chance of just dumpstering you with one stupid card that has virtually no deckbuilding constraints.
    Why don't you adapt your removal to it then (Edicts etc.) or try to circumvent it's flaws and weaknesses (Toughness 1?) by using trampling creatures or something like Loxodon Warhammer (don't forget Kessig Wolf Run as well)?

  15. #18235

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa View Post
    Why don't you adapt your removal to it then (Edicts etc.) or try to circumvent it's flaws and weaknesses (Toughness 1?) by using trampling creatures or something like Loxodon Warhammer (don't forget Kessig Wolf Run as well)?
    This is what I'm always wondering - and so many of the best answers to it are non-blue! Marsh Casualties, Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution, Council's Judgement, Toxic Deluge, Engineered Explosives, Black Sun's Zenith, Liliana, literally just killing them faster, etc. I agree that it's dumb as hell, but if we're banning dumb cards I want to never have to be chaliced or Trinisphered or resistored again (all of those cards are dumb as hell, too, but not bannable).

  16. #18236
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I am over it. It's just the final nail in the fucking blue power creep bull shit. Time to #GoPlayModern or quit the game altogether. I tried to sell out when treasure cruise came around. Maybe it's time now. The format is obviously so far beyond repair at this point and wizards doesn't give a shit about it
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  17. #18237

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I am over it. It's just the final nail in the fucking blue power creep bull shit. Time to #GoPlayModern or quit the game altogether. I tried to sell out when treasure cruise came around. Maybe it's time now. The format is obviously so far beyond repair at this point and wizards doesn't give a shit about it
    Do what I did, when people roll in the TNNs you roll in the Ugins, it's a pretty solid disincentive.
    Lands, MUD, Stax, and Miracles.

  18. #18238
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I am over it. It's just the final nail in the fucking blue power creep bull shit. Time to #GoPlayModern or quit the game altogether. I tried to sell out when treasure cruise came around. Maybe it's time now. The format is obviously so far beyond repair at this point and wizards doesn't give a shit about it
    The creep is the biggest problem. Like I could imagine a format where TNN, Delver, Probe, Terminus, Show and Tell, Leovold (maybe deathrite too) all get banned with Sensei Top being unbanned being very fun. The 3-4 color blue clusterfucks would have a harder time operating, and you have things like Maverick, goblins, and other non-blue decks having actually places in the Meta. Fuck, even zoo could likely be a thing.

    Like how sad is it that Goyf is unplayable in the format. For as dumb as Goyf has been in the history of Legacy, I would at least prefer that to blind skill flip delver into true-skill apesis


    As it currently stands, either you play unfair decks which win before the blue decks come online or you print out your blue copy-paste decklist and play that to beat all the random fringe midrange decks people still enjoy playing




    another edit: saw brainstorm ape's post:

    "Sure, when you sleeve up a deck like Junk, Maverick, Deadguy, Jund you're gonna be a dog to fast combo and have some nongames where you don't get to interact. Part and parcel of the Legacy metagame. But you expect to have longer, more interactive, interesting games against fair decks playing some fundamental Magic. Then they drop a 3-mana Progenitals into your mouth and your Goyf or Knight or whatever pet card you're running looks like a steaming turd and all of your interaction doesn't do shit. So not only are you getting clowned on by a good portion of the meta with little-to-no counterplay, but your traditionally good matchups have a chance of just dumpstering you with one stupid card that has virtually no deckbuilding constraints."

    Preach homie
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  19. #18239

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Megadeus: TNN blows. It's dull, uninteractive, and requires no skill to play.

    Legacy Players: Play Griselbrand to beat it.

    Megadeus: Griselbrand is dull, uninteractive, and requires no skill to play.

    Legacy Players: Lol screw you, play Modern.

    Megadeus: ...Modern is dull, uninteractive, and requires no skill to play. Whatever, I'll just sell out.

    Legacy Players [Crams Leovold into Maverick]: Yup, absolutely nothing wrong with Legacy.

  20. #18240
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The problem with "just play TNN answers" is that those cards are narrow, often symmetrical (so you lose some of your own board presence to answer their guy) and a dice roll as to if they will even be effective. For example, edicts don't work if they have another creature, EE for 3 kills all your 3 drops, -1/-1 effects kill your x/1s and are useless if the thing is suited up, etc etc.

    They are also mana-inefficient. So the TNN player gets to play all the cheapest spells and you have to play 2+ mana answers like Golgari Charm, Councils's Judgement -- hell even the EE for 3 example costs 5 total mana to pull off. (Deed costs 6, etc). For a 3-mana spell, TNN generates a lot of tempo advantage, because it has inevitability, grinding the game to a halt while you search for your narrowish answer, which itself is going to cost as much or more than the other player spent on TNN (in the meantime they can attack/block)

    It also generates virtual CA by blanking targeted removal, which you have to play in order to beat most of the other efficient threats in Legacy like DRS, Delver, Mom, YP, Gurmag Angler, Tarmogoyf, etc.

    It also prevents other cards up the curve from gaining traction, because you can't often afford to play something that costs that much that gets fogged by a TNN while they get the chance to draw their targeted/efficient removal for it and the turn the corner. (This is the issue for cards like Knight).

    It's also a small point but the fact that TNN doesn't get hit by red damage-based sweepers cuts off a lot of answers that might be otherwise good. A deck like Czech Pile should get cleaned out by Pyroclasm, but no one can play that card because it's dead vs. TNN. (And spare me the "der it showed up in X sideboard." People still play Knight despite it sucking against TNN, what I mean is that these cards have less room to breathe.)

    And yes Chalice and 3ball are uninteractive as well, but they have real deckbuilding considerations. TNN asks nothing of its owner other than playing U. Even NO -> Progenitus requires you to have another creature in play and resolve a 4 mana sorcery that costs 2 green mana. (There's no Spell Pierce for creatures.)

    All of this has a consolidating effect on fair decks. There's a TNN arms race where players try to TNN harder than the other. You can't beat it, but you can try to get yours out first. It's not that fun to play with or against, other than sometimes you are happy to win by dropping it and attacking through everything they have or draw. But it's not healthy.

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