View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21741
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Takes it from 7 Moxen to 4. I'm not sure that's good enough to change anything. No, I think Urza is the issue.
    I'm out of touch...Mox Amber finally coming into it's own. Looks like it's a $50 card now. I also find it hilarious that it's still listed as a 'control' deck as Whir Prison on mtgtop8, lol. Emry is an insane addition to that deck. Sneaky combo deck is a combo deck, not a control deck.
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  2. #21742
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Given Urza's Saga and the related banning that the block brought for magic (academy, windfall, spiral, jar etc.) , it's only appropriate that urza is also banned.
    -rob

  3. #21743
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    Given Urza's Saga and the related banning that the block brought for magic (academy, windfall, spiral, jar etc.) , it's only appropriate that urza is also banned.
    It would certainly match the flavor, lol.

    Strangely enough, I don't think Urza on his own would cause this. It's Urza + Thopter/Sword + Emry. They are continually printing cards into the modern format that enable Thopter/Sword to become better. It's rather ironic that they banned Sword of the Meek preemptively, then it wasn't any good, then they put effort into making it good. Now it might be in a deck that is potentially too good.

    Oh WOTC, why is it always a love/hate relationship with you? At least give us the 'safe word'.
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  4. #21744
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It's not Thopter Sword at all. That combo is losing favour for Paradoxical Outcome. Sometimes used with Jeskai Ascendancy and Emry. Sometimes without the Ascendancy.

    Outcome, Urza, a token generator and Nexus Of Fate is quite the mix. Sai or Saheeli. The deck can one hit kill on turn 3 rather easily with all the Moxen. Land, Urza, play PO, replay, get another PO, repeat. Leave something on the table that you can later use Saheeli and clone it as Urza's construct. Swing. That's without Ascendancy. With Ascendancy you make stupid mana as all the tokens untap and you make more mana. Then you use PO to bounce Saheeli, use her ability two or three times and swing in with Construct clones.

    That's all before you find Nexus and take another turn. Oh and Blockers got you down? Pity EE can take out any issues you may have and if your running Ascendancy, you can loop Moxen with Emry for any mix of mana you want.

    Deck is the new KCI or Eggs. Complex loops that are not intuitive to your average FNM player. That's why I think it's going to get banned.
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  5. #21745
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    It's not Thopter Sword at all. That combo is losing favour for Paradoxical Outcome. Sometimes used with Jeskai Ascendancy and Emry. Sometimes without the Ascendancy.

    Outcome, Urza, a token generator and Nexus Of Fate is quite the mix. Sai or Saheeli. The deck can one hit kill on turn 3 rather easily with all the Moxen. Land, Urza, play PO, replay, get another PO, repeat. Leave something on the table that you can later use Saheeli and clone it as Urza's construct. Swing. That's without Ascendancy. With Ascendancy you make stupid mana as all the tokens untap and you make more mana. Then you use PO to bounce Saheeli, use her ability two or three times and swing in with Construct clones.

    That's all before you find Nexus and take another turn. Oh and Blockers got you down? Pity EE can take out any issues you may have and if your running Ascendancy, you can loop Moxen with Emry for any mix of mana you want.

    Deck is the new KCI or Eggs. Complex loops that are not intuitive to your average FNM player. That's why I think it's going to get banned.
    Thanks for the clarification; I just assumed it was going infinite with Thopters.
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  6. #21746
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    It's not Thopter Sword at all. That combo is losing favour for Paradoxical Outcome. Sometimes used with Jeskai Ascendancy and Emry. Sometimes without the Ascendancy.

    Outcome, Urza, a token generator and Nexus Of Fate is quite the mix. Sai or Saheeli. The deck can one hit kill on turn 3 rather easily with all the Moxen. Land, Urza, play PO, replay, get another PO, repeat. Leave something on the table that you can later use Saheeli and clone it as Urza's construct. Swing. That's without Ascendancy. With Ascendancy you make stupid mana as all the tokens untap and you make more mana. Then you use PO to bounce Saheeli, use her ability two or three times and swing in with Construct clones.

    That's all before you find Nexus and take another turn. Oh and Blockers got you down? Pity EE can take out any issues you may have and if your running Ascendancy, you can loop Moxen with Emry for any mix of mana you want.

    Deck is the new KCI or Eggs. Complex loops that are not intuitive to your average FNM player. That's why I think it's going to get banned.
    Pity, looked like the first modern deck in a while that was at face value interesting.
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  7. #21747
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Deck is the new KCI or Eggs. Complex loops that are not intuitive to your average FNM player. That's why I think it's going to get banned.
    I've been watching streams. Luckily even most of the streamers don't understand the deck either and are making terrible plays. It's a major facepalmfest. If that continues in tournaments, the deck may not get banned yet.

  8. #21748

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I've been watching streams. Luckily even most of the streamers don't understand the deck either and are making terrible plays. It's a major facepalmfest. If that continues in tournaments, the deck may not get banned yet.
    All it takes is a Matt Nass to run the tables a couple times with it at some high level tournaments to earn the ire of ban hammer.

  9. #21749
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I didn't see an announcement; no changes? It was supposed to be yesterday.

    EDIT: Yep, just saw it. No changes. I think this is fine, hoping for a small semblance of stability in the modern format for a little while.
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  10. #21750

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    ...
    Strangely enough, I don't think Urza on his own would cause this.
    ...
    Urza does fit the pattern of modern WotC mistakes since it has a bunch of abilities on a single card, and it fits a traditional mistake pattern since it offsets its own cost in mana production. There might be other stuff involved, but it's credible that Urza is a problem card.

  11. #21751
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Urza does fit the pattern of modern WotC mistakes since it has a bunch of abilities on a single card, and it fits a traditional mistake pattern since it offsets its own cost in mana production. There might be other stuff involved, but it's credible that Urza is a problem card.
    Sure, I can buy that. I think it's an example of a card that is obviously powerful, but not obviously too powerful. The full extent isn't revealed until the community breaks it in half. Deathrite Shaman took a little while to catch on as well.
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  12. #21752
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I don‘t think DRS really took time to catch on so much as tier 0 CB/Top meant blue DRS decks could never afford to spam Snapcasters (they just would never resolve), so all creative space was gobbled up by the need to run 3-4x Decay whereas now the 4c stuff is halting mostly around 1-2 copies.

    Once Top went away you no longer needed to run a card that dug towards Decay with a trigger miracles couldn‘t touch (Shardless). It took what, 1-2 months for Czech to effectively end any playability of not-blue DRS decks because there is no way for them to beat Hymn, Snap-Hymn into K-Comms on draw step and flying deathtouch walls. The only exceptions were Grixis Delver and Elves.

    In the setting of Fetchlands, Hymn being legal is the primary reason DRS wasn‘t okay. While we could also point at Snapcaster as being a problem card, it serves to keep Goyf from ruining the format like it did until 2011 so it gets a reluctant pass.

  13. #21753
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    SCG Classic in Philly

    The #16, #13,#12, #10, #8, #6, #5, #3, #2, and #1 deck all ran Crop Rotation into Karakas (10/16 with Crop Rotation, and 4 of the other decks were combo racing).

    Somebody was expecting Marit Lage... but not enough. Marit Lage still swept the top 3. 16, 12, 10, 8, 6, 5 only ran the singleton Crop Rotation SB while the top 3 decks all had 4x Crop Rotation main.

    #banCropRotation

  14. #21754
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Without even checking the lists, I'm just going to guess that much of that is coming out of NBC RUG. There is a structural instability introduced by playing Daze in a deck built too mana hungry, having abandoned 4x other threats beside Delver at 1cmc. Karakas is powerful, but c'mon, you've got no clock down and you're using an extra land drop on re-deploying a colored source - that means you aren't covering your bases with Wasteland deployment. Doing Crop Rot + Karakas is not good enough, it is cute though.

    Proactive strategies that only have one wincon [beating down] can't just sit there not beating down and think "I'm gonna crush Depths b/c I have Crop Rot + Karakas." Now where'd you put those Stifles to keep the Karakas dream alive...

    Edit: Depths ain‘t exactly getting better against a bounce spell it can‘t Duress, which also blocks Lage (Borrower).

  15. #21755
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Without even checking the lists, I'm just going to guess that much of that is coming out of NBC RUG. Doing Crop Rot + Karakas is not good enough, it is cute though.
    Yeah, most of the top 5-16 ones were RUG Delver trying to be cute with SB 1 Crop Rotation + 1 Karakas. How they expect to assemble that fast enough against Turbo Depths...

    They're running Hexdrinker as the other 1 cmc threat, but it's extremely mana-hungry and has anti-synergy with Daze and Crop Rotation and Wasteland, so they basically have no clock if they want pressure on Marit Lage.


    Edit: Depths ain‘t exactly getting better against a bounce spell it can‘t Duress, which also blocks Lage (Borrower).
    Not all variations play Duress. Hogaak Depths plays 4x Thoughtseize 4x Cabal Therapy. If Borrower takes off, the others will just switch their discard suite to include some Inquisition of Kozilek. That doesn't mean Depths should be banned either, just that Borrower won't spell the end of it.

  16. #21756
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I‘m thinking with all the legacy staples in NBC including Wasteland and a 2 mana Crucible that RUG is doing okay vs Depths. RUG doesn‘t need to be a deck that can intrinsically pressure Lage without losing clock; it‘s okay to have a coin-flippy matchup in the format. Stop playing a 13 card sideboard and you might pick up a round win vs some other deck.

    The thing is, if RUG is serious about improving that Depths matchup, then they need to stop picking up lands.

  17. #21757
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Without even checking the lists, I'm just going to guess that much of that is coming out of NBC RUG. There is a structural instability introduced by playing Daze in a deck built too mana hungry, having abandoned 4x other threats beside Delver at 1cmc. Karakas is powerful, but c'mon, you've got no clock down and you're using an extra land drop on re-deploying a colored source - that means you aren't covering your bases with Wasteland deployment. Doing Crop Rot + Karakas is not good enough, it is cute though.

    Proactive strategies that only have one wincon [beating down] can't just sit there not beating down and think "I'm gonna crush Depths b/c I have Crop Rot + Karakas." Now where'd you put those Stifles to keep the Karakas dream alive...

    Edit: Depths ain‘t exactly getting better against a bounce spell it can‘t Duress, which also blocks Lage (Borrower).
    You should check the lists.

    I think you're being a little too reductionist in the way RUG approaches the Depths matchup. Crop Rotation isn't really a silver bullet so much as it's redundant copies of land-based disruption. Karakas is one target, but if that is dealt with or drawn CR can get Wasteland, or counter opponent's Wastelands. Most lists also sideboard at least 1 Vapor Snag, some of them also play a Submerge. They have around 4 slots dedicated to the matchup that also do work in other matchups. Converting an extra land into another Wasteland can be back-breaking against some decks. This is all alongside a potential early Wasteland + W6, making a soft-lock.
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  18. #21758
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I think you have to be reductionist when people are in a shell that has to be proactive to win and chooses to interact with Depths on a game actions axis [lands]. You can‘t pick up lands and fight effectively with this strategy [which is also putting you further from the primary way you can win the game: the combat step].

    You can add silver bullets, but your sideboard mapping better have plans for all Dazes coming out (they have other things that need to come out); I‘ve not seen this happening. Playing “no bad cards“ also means you don‘t really have a cohesive plan. All that Depths has to worry about are isolated cards while parasitizing the profound damage NBC RUG can deal itself by losing key land drops. Despite all this, those isolated cards are getting better at a much quicker rate than Depths is improving.

    Gotta take everything coming out of RUG Delver with a grain of salt if they‘re complaining about a matchup that feels bad at the same time as they cut Stifle. They played themselves into a dubious board states and a questionable backup plan in hand (countermagic vs Veil: the green card that loses to Stifle).

  19. #21759

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    I think you have to be reductionist when people are in a shell that has to be proactive to win and chooses to interact with Depths on a game actions axis [lands]. You can‘t pick up lands and fight effectively with this strategy [which is also putting you further from the primary way you can win the game: the combat step].

    You can add silver bullets, but your sideboard mapping better have plans for all Dazes coming out (they have other things that need to come out); I‘ve not seen this happening. Playing “no bad cards“ also means you don‘t really have a cohesive plan. All that Depths has to worry about are isolated cards while parasitizing the profound damage NBC RUG can deal itself by losing key land drops. Despite all this, those isolated cards are getting better at a much quicker rate than Depths is improving.

    Gotta take everything coming out of RUG Delver with a grain of salt if they‘re complaining about a matchup that feels bad at the same time as they cut Stifle. They played themselves into a dubious board states and a questionable backup plan in hand (countermagic vs Veil: the green card that loses to Stifle).
    Nah, you just got a terminal case of pundit brain.

  20. #21760
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Nah, you just got a terminal case of pundit brain.
    No it‘s more about welcome to legacy where there is such a thing as not great matchups. Depths has plenty of bad matchups and there‘s nothing they can do about it (no 1-2 SB slot fix-all). NBC RUG has a perfectly reasonable chance of beating Depths pre- and post-board, but they want their silver bullets which are highly prone to failure due to the realities of Daze (i.e. if you are playing from behind, Daze is more than likely tempo‘ing its caster out of the game).

    So a glass-cannon deck that 2-for-1‘s itself to make a 20/20 is beating you, and you won‘t update your RUG list to cover that possibility...why should the format care about Depths or Crop Rot being legal?

    On a side note, not updating a decklist is RUG‘s modus operandi. They get a new play pattern [dude into crucible-PW into dude vs the old dude into dude into dude into how is it I‘m not winning], and they go right back to not adapting#RUGLyfe.
    Last edited by Fox; 10-09-2019 at 05:44 PM.

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  1. FTW