View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #22601
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Impeccable timing for all us preorder-ers who just got their hands on the cards on Saturday.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  2. #22602
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I think at some point, the whole mechanic just gets nuked. At least I hope, because Lurrus would be an interesting maindeck card to brew with, but now we can't.
    Not really interested in having to bring in yard hate vs DnT. Take it as a win and move on.

  3. #22603
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Not really interested in having to bring in yard hate vs DnT. Take it as a win and move on.
    Well, I like and play Death and Taxes, so I don't take it for a win at all, .

    I mean, I have plenty of other options as well, but I'd have liked to have that as well, along with possibly improved Deadguy.

    I don't really care that most of the cards I preordered, that haven't even gotten to me yet are useless now, haha. I will just buy some other cards. I just think they could have been a little more sensible in the ban move.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  4. #22604

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Can't say I'm a fan of having Gyruda around for the future, but at least that's just the probably new best version of turn-1-all-in-combo which still has as many weaknesses as other glass cannons, so I guess I don't care.

    Yorion I'm more worried about, because the deck it slots in naturally is the one that is pretty much guaranteed to be the DTB now anyway. If you look at recent Snowko/Miracles lists you'll see that it's comically easy for that deck to play extra copies of its best 60 to accomodate a total of 80. 4/5 Force becomes 6, 8 cantrips becomes 12, 4 strix becomes up to 8... apart from exactly Brainstorm, Astrolabe and some sideboard bullets the deck doesn't even suffer from a 33% increase in deck size.

    Glad they nuked Zirda though.

  5. #22605
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Not really interested in having to bring in yard hate vs DnT. Take it as a win and move on.
    How about a 80 card D&T Yorion Special?

    Play Yorion for mana, then bounce it back every round for an unholy amount of triggers with Karakas + Vial @5, all while having Mom/Giver protection up. I wouldn't even be surprised if you could throw in Astrolabe in for extra draw (and mana fixing colorless lands).

    Too bad D&T isn't that hot right now between Oko and Astrolabe undermining its core strategy.

  6. #22606

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardcore View Post
    What I am saying is that Brainstorm and Force of Will matter ever less, eventually becoming irrelevant
    don't be a shill for BS; Force isn't the problem = BS is always the problem.

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tourname...2152312#online - 75% Brainstorm saturation eventually becoming irrelevant

    banned because of BS:
    SDT, DTT, DRS, Underworld Breach, Wrenn & Six, Treasure Cruise and Gitaxian Probe

  7. #22607
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    banned because of BS:
    SDT, DTT, DRS, Underworld Breach, Wrenn & Six, Treasure Cruise and Gitaxian Probe
    An interesting theory, but your line of causation there seems spurious, honestly. Especially since SDT, DDT, DRS, TC and Probe are all banned in Modern as well, where there was never Brainstorm to consider.

    There is actually a clearer line there to the status of those cards and fetchlands. But again, we can ceaselessly open this can of worms...
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    óKaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  8. #22608
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Impeccable timing for all us preorder-ers who just got their hands on the cards on Saturday.
    Mine arrive Wednesday x.x
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  9. #22609
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    don't be a shill for BS; Force isn't the problem = BS is always the problem.

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tourname...2152312#online - 75% Brainstorm saturation eventually becoming irrelevant

    banned because of BS:
    SDT, DTT, DRS, Underworld Breach, Wrenn & Six, Treasure Cruise and Gitaxian Probe

    you mean fetchlands
    Got tired of Legacy and you like drafts? Try my Paupercube What?

  10. #22610

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    An interesting theory, but your line of causation there seems spurious, honestly. Especially since SDT, DDT, DRS, TC and Probe are all banned in Modern as well, where there was never Brainstorm to consider.

    There is actually a clearer line there to the status of those cards and fetchlands. But again, we can ceaselessly open this can of worms...
    OK, i'll take the bait. Are those cards restricted or banned in the format of "Ultimate Cosmic Power" = vintage?
    Honestly, if something's restricted in vintage, is it usually banned in legacy?


    If fetchlands were banned, i'd be on board with that; no more perfect mana for 4x color piles.
    But then, we could add fetchlands to the list of cards banned because of BS.

  11. #22611
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    don't be a shill for BS; Force isn't the problem = BS is always the problem.

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tourname...2152312#online - 75% Brainstorm saturation eventually becoming irrelevant

    banned because of BS:
    SDT, DTT, DRS, Underworld Breach, Wrenn & Six, Treasure Cruise and Gitaxian Probe
    -SDT banned b/c they failed to ban Counterbalance.
    -DRS banned b/c all starting point diversity destroyed by Snapcaster/Hymn (all fair decks were bad Czech), with slight exception of pseudo-Hymn (Grixis Delver with Probe/Sea/Therapy) and Elves (DRS machine gun).
    -Breach and DTT banned for hating out all fair decks without blue.
    -W&6 banned b/c of 1-card combo power level.
    -Git Probe banned for being a cantripping Lotus Petal (b/c Delve).
    -Cruise banned for being overpowered, unable to play magic against Delver into Daze into Fireblastís +3 mana all supported by cantipping Lotus Petal (Probe).

    Fetchlands are the culprit youíre looking for, not Brainstorm.

  12. #22612

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    -SDT banned b/c they failed to ban Counterbalance.
    -DRS banned b/c all starting point diversity destroyed by Snapcaster/Hymn (all fair decks were bad Czech), with slight exception of pseudo-Hymn (Grixis Delver with Probe/Sea/Therapy) and Elves (DRS machine gun).
    -Breach and DTT banned for hating out all fair decks without blue.
    -W&6 banned b/c of 1-card combo power level.
    -Git Probe banned for being a cantripping Lotus Petal (b/c Delve).
    -Cruise banned for being overpowered, unable to play magic against Delver into Daze into Fireblastís +3 mana all supported by cantipping Lotus Petal (Probe).

    Fetchlands are the culprit youíre looking for, not Brainstorm.
    funny how every bullet point in your post, starts with a deck that has 4 BS.

  13. #22613

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    funny how every bullet point in your post, starts with a deck that has 4 BS.
    Funny how BS is good mainly because of Fetchlands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon X View Post
    The only glass cannon here is the pilot.
    I play decks with a lot of white enchantments, and white isn't even my favorite color.

  14. #22614

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    If you want to play that game... funny how every deck with Brainstorm plays fetchlands, but lots of decks play fetchlands but no Brainstorm...

    If you really want to find the card/s that really should be banned but get a pass because they've just always kinda been there and people enjoy playing with them in older formats when they can't in newer ones...


    ... it's the fetchlands you want to ban. Not Brainstorm. If BS ever does get banned, it will be because of fetchlands, not vice versa. Just like the majority of cards you mentioned were banned because of fetchlands, not BS. Brainstorm is not even a good card. It doesn't even make it into Pauper Cubes and into most blue Pauper decks. It's funny how we're talking about so many things that are allegedly broken, but an untapped land that essentially makes all 5 colors when needed isn't even part of the discussion...


    Now, to get that straight here, I don't want to ban fetchlands. I'm just saying Brainstorm is not the card that defines Legacy more than anything else. It's the fetchlands. Even the ABU duals are a complete joke against the fetches both in terms of utility as well as raw power level. Duals make 2 colors, fetches make up to 5.


    It's actually so funny to think about. If there was a zero mana tutor for every card type (such as: search your library for a card of that type and put it into your hand.), I think we can agree all of them would be banned. However, the ten zero mana tutors we have for all mana-producing lands in your deck are legal.

  15. #22615
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Izor View Post
    Brainstorm is not even a good card.
    Wipe this meme from the face of the earth. I understand this is the designated shitposting thread but we gotta draw the line SOMEWHERE

  16. #22616

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I mean that in the literal sense. Brainstorm is not a very good Magic card in a vacuum, which means you don't have 12+ free shuffle effects in your deck.

    I welcome you to play 4 BS in a shuffle-less deck and prove me wrong. And don't claim I didn't put it into that context in my post, because I clearly did. The fact that you pulled it out of the context in which it was said doesn't change that fact.

  17. #22617
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Izor View Post
    I mean that in the literal sense. Brainstorm is not a very good Magic card in a vacuum, which means you don't have 12+ free shuffle effects in your deck.

    I welcome you to play 4 BS in a shuffle-less deck and prove me wrong. And don't claim I didn't put it into that context in my post, ebcause I clearly did.
    No game pieces exist in a vacuum. Without a supporting cast Mind's Desire is a worse Unexpected Results.

    Screw it, as soon as I'm allowed to leave my house I'll build some janky Ux whatever pauper deck that uses Brainstorm to hit draw triggers or dig for its combo pieces/answers.

  18. #22618

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    No game pieces exist in a vacuum. Without a supporting cast Mind's Desire is a worse Unexpected Results.

    Screw it, as soon as I'm allowed to leave my house I'll build some janky Ux whatever pauper deck that uses Brainstorm to hit draw triggers or dig for its combo pieces/answers.
    Sounds good. You'll find out quickly enough that there are people who have... you know... played Pauper with blue cards before and who know Brainstorm is plain unplayable if you don't have shuffle effects. Unplayable in this case means that it's outclassed by all the other cantrips.

    But I'm sure you'll be the one who finds the one deck that this doesn't apply to. Good luck digging for your combo with 2 dead cards on top all the time.

    Sure, no game exists in a vacuum. I was only talking about a Legacy in which fetchlands were banned/not present and said BS would not be a good card in that format. I thought that was common sense.

  19. #22619

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    Wipe this meme from the face of the earth. I understand this is the designated shitposting thread but we gotta draw the line SOMEWHERE
    Brainstorm was always a terribly yanky card. It wasn't until Onslaught that Brainstorm became a thing. Prior to fetch Brainstorm locking yourself wasn't the outlier, it was all that the card did.

  20. #22620
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    So now the question follows: are companions inherently broken by giving you an extra card (even a sub-optimal one) or was the real offender Lurrus/Zirda due to their particular effects? The opportunity cost of one sideboard slot for a guaranteed 8th starting card is very low. My opinion so far is that the mechanic itself won't be good for the game at all, even with Lurrrus/Zirda gone from Eternal formats, and this is just a way to buy time for selling packs. Then the mechanic will be formally eradicated with bans across formats.

    Did anyone else notice that for the other formats that they might reevaluate how the mechanic works? They seem to be willing to adjust rulings for those formats but not Legacy and Vintage. If you were ever in doubt about how WOTC feels about those formats, this is about as big of a middle finger as they could throw at us.
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