View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #22701

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    While I do agree with everything H typed I just gotta say please give those poor commas a break!

  2. #22702
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    So many words when you could have stopped here: A format's identity is an idealistic argument. You are saying "this is how the ideal Legacy looks like" and then pretending your a realist. Man do I love banned list chat.
    I think this is a fairly disingenuous reading of what he meant though.

    The "Realist" position here is the pragmatic one. The one that sees what cards are legal and works with them to play the game.

    The "Idealist" position here is the idealistic one. The one that does not accept what cards are legal, won't play because the game is not up the their standards.

    This isn't an actual Realism vs. Idealism debate, in the more technical philosophical operationalized terms. Because Legacy is no more "real" by that metric than money. If we could debate Moral Realism, we certainly could debate if Legacy is Real, or constructed.

    That is hardly the point at hand though.

    I certainly am not telling people who are idealistic to not be. I'm not telling anyone that they should be pragmatic. In fact, often, pragmatism is pretty gross. But, here, in this case, I see the value. I think that is what Mr. Safety is getting at, that the pragmatic view has value, because you get to play the game. If you don't want to, then don't.

    The real point, I think, is that almost everyone is something of an Idealist. But, here, the case is being made that an extreme, fevenent idealism simply does not serve the practical aim of actually playing the game. We are all idealists in some way, but we can also just enjoy things for what they are, knowing that different doesn't always mean better.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  3. #22703
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sella View Post
    While I do agree with everything H typed I just gotta say please give those poor commas a break!
    Hey, give me a break, I'm stupid and I type like it too!
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  4. #22704
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    So many words when you could have stopped here: A format's identity is an idealistic argument. You are saying "this is how the ideal Legacy looks like" and then pretending your a realist. Man do I love banned list chat.
    I completely disagree. A format's identity is shaped by what's legal, not what 'ought' to be legal. It's not an idealistic argument at all. I have made no claims on how Legacy 'ought' to look like, only what it 'is', and challenging others who are making 'ought' arguments.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  5. #22705
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I certainly am not telling people who are idealistic to not be. I'm not telling anyone that they should be pragmatic. In fact, often, pragmatism is pretty gross. But, here, in this case, I see the value. I think that is what Mr. Safety is getting at, that the pragmatic view has value, because you get to play the game. If you don't want to, then don't.

    The real point, I think, is that almost everyone is something of an Idealist. But, here, the case is being made that an extreme, fevenent idealism simply does not serve the practical aim of actually playing the game. We are all idealists in some way, but we can also just enjoy things for what they are, knowing that different doesn't always mean better.
    This is exactly what I meant to say. Thanks for clarifying.

    EDIT: I could dream all day of what a Brainstorm-less format could be, or I could play the game in a somewhat less desirable state (if that were how I felt) with Brainstorm. I choose the latter. I'm not saying you have to, far from it.

    If you dare, follow this link:
    https://www.bing.com/images/search?v...x=0&ajaxhist=0
    Brainstorm Realist

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  6. #22706
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Unrelated question: Is there a good reason Wizards doesn't use "suspensions" or temporary bans aside from the fluctuations they would produce in card pricing?
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
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    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
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    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
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    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  7. #22707
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Unrelated question: Is there a good reason Wizards doesn't use "suspensions" or temporary bans aside from the fluctuations they would produce in card pricing?
    I don't think there is a particularly good reason. They've actually done it in Arena, IIRC for Historic. But maybe the answer is just a lack of wanting to constantly reevaluate things?
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    óKaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  8. #22708

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    If Brainstorm were a sorcery instead of an instant it wouldn't be nearly the problem the idealist make it out to be.

    Brainstorm has hit every metric MTG has used to justify banning a card, yet it persist.
    i would be 100% behind a sorcery errata...

    remember before the stack, there was the batch, interrupts and mana sources?


  9. #22709
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    i would be 100% behind a sorcery errata...

    remember before the stack, there was the batch, interrupts and mana sources?

    "As a fast-effect..." lol The good old days.

  10. #22710
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Was pretty funny commentary from an Eternal Weekend where a guy tries to use Mystical Tutor to find a Tolarian b/c he didnít know Mana Source was a card type. Itís important to continue to call things by their true names: Mono/Poly/Continuous Artifact, Interrupt/Mana Source, and local/global enchantment. These terms should never have gone away imo, they made perfect sense.

  11. #22711

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Was pretty funny commentary from an Eternal Weekend where a guy tries to use Mystical Tutor to find a Tolarian b/c he didnít know Mana Source was a card type. Itís important to continue to call things by their true names: Mono/Poly/Continuous Artifact, Interrupt/Mana Source, and local/global enchantment. These terms should never have gone away imo, they made perfect sense.
    During my college years I became a super duper casual player. Then got out of the game until about Mirrodin Besieged etc. Fast forward to Tumble Magnet and I tap someone's whatever, thinking I was going to turn it off, and low & behold, a judge call later, that's not a thing anymore. (All those damn years of Icy Manipulator wrecking havoc are a thing of the past.) I was full of the disappoint. Mogg Fanatic, Yavimaya Elder, how I miss your great deal damage stack sac effects for profit.

  12. #22712

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Sorry for making this long. I wanted to sum up thoughts. I promise I tried to make it readable.

    Itís not possible to mathematically prove that anything ought to be banned, and itís not possible to define what Legacy ought to be in a way thatís universally agreed on. Putting that burden of proof on someone, in this context, is asking them to go jump in a lake.

    To me itís as plain as day that Brainstorm was better off banned seven to ten years ago, and Iíll make my case. When youíre reading it, please understand that all Iíve got ó all WotC has ever had ó is common sense and rough heuristics, not formal logic.

    Iíll start with Vintage, the format whose mission is to encompass all of Magic. Even the most unbalanced cards, mostly early design mistakes, are legal to play (lol at Lurrus). Thereís a trade-off: Allowing these unbalanced cards to remain legal, even if theyíre restricted to one copy per deck, permanently focuses the format on these early design mistakes, since WotC intends to never again print cards unbalanced enough to compete with them. Vintage will forever be focused on blue decks and (as long as Workshop and Bazaar are unrestricted) artifact decks and graveyard decks. The cost of being able to play with every card is that if a player wants to have a shot at winning with any other kind of deck, Vintage is not for them.

    Legacy was split off from Vintage. Its mission is to be very similar to Vintage in this one respect: it encompasses 99.99% of Magic. But it also has a mission to escape the sway of the unbalanced cards that define Vintage. The 0.01% chunk thatís missing from Legacy is the unbalanced cards, which are banned, not restricted, as a sacrifice for the sake of format diversity. Legacy is designed to avoid the fate of being permanently defined by a narrow bunch of unbalanced cards.

    Some strategies will always rise to the top. There will be winners and losers. The promise of Legacy is not that you can play just absolutely anything and expect to win.

    The promise of Legacy is that if you compare it to Vintage, you should be able to say, ďThis Legacy thing is a lot more diverse at the most competitive level.Ē (The noncompetitive levels donít matter: You can run anything in any format if you donít mind getting crushed.)

    Legacy, to its credit, has fulfilled a great deal of its promise. I could rattle off more strategies with a fighting chance of winning a Legacy tournament than I could for Vintage. But ďa fighting chanceĒ is a nice way of saying ďnot a good chance.Ē While Legacy far outstrips Vintage in terms of strategies with a fighting chance, it doesnít do much better in terms of strategies with a good chance.

    Vintage has blue (a handful of substrategies with a great deal of overlap), Workshop, and Dredge stuff (??). Legacy has blue (a handful of substrategies with a great deal of overlap), Chalice (??), Depths (??), and Vial stuff (????). The difference between blue and the next best thing is actually bigger in Legacy than in Vintage (where Workshop is sometimes on equal footing with blue).

    You may not like me grouping ďblueĒ together like this, and youíd be right that there are some big differences within ďblue.Ē But from a years-long perspective, the same gang of troublemakers are at it again and again. Itís fair to say ďblueĒ is always the best Legacy archetype in a way that it would be unfair to say that ďredĒ is an archetype encompassing Mono-Red Prison and Mono-Red Burn and Mono-Red Goblins. Those decks are really different.

    So, Legacy largely but incompletely delivers on its promise. Itís not hard to spot the ringleader card in the archetype thatís always the best. Itís not hard to see that the ringleader card is bannable.

    Here are some typical criteria for a bannable card:
    Itís ubiquitous at the highest level of competition.
    Itís cheap to cast.
    It greatly reduces variance.
    The best way to counter it is to use it and then tune your deck to face other decks using it.
    It doesnít have a meaningful deckbuilding cost.
    We have enough observations to be sure of what weíre seeing.

    Brainstorm also partially meets this criterion:
    Provides card advantage (not quite, but itís the ultimate virtual card advantage)

    Itís often repeated that Brainstorm is bannable by every metric. I grant that the card requires decision making, but so do Demonic Tutor and Survival of the Fittest and really any other card, if you think hard enough about the correct play.

    If you just like playing Brainstorm and would be sad if it were banned, I have no argument. Iím not here to tell you what you ought to like.

    Tl;dr ban Brainstorm to upgrade the number of decks with not just a fighting chance, but a good chance, in accordance with the point of Legacy. If it doesnít work, just unban it again. And do this seven to ten years ago.

  13. #22713

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Interestingly enough, if Brainstorm were banned seven to ten years ago, that probably means that Ponder and Preordain never get printed and that Serum Visions likely would be banned in Modern.

    EDIT: Ponder still gets printed, but Preordain possibly not.

  14. #22714

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    Sorry for making this long. I wanted to sum up thoughts. I promise I tried to make it readable.

    [sarcasm]tl, dr[/sarcasm]

    Tl;dr ban Brainstorm to upgrade the number of decks with not just a fighting chance, but a good chance, in accordance with the point of Legacy. If it doesnít work, just unban it again. And do this seven to ten years ago.
    I <3 this post.

  15. #22715
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    Tl;dr ban Brainstorm to upgrade the number of decks with not just a fighting chance, but a good chance, in accordance with the point of Legacy. If it doesnít work, just unban it again. And do this seven to ten years ago.
    The question though is, even if I agree with you (and I generally do) the window of 7-10 years ago is well and gone now. So, while your post shows good hindsight, the issue lies in the present, looking to the future. The inaction is as defining as the action taken by Wizards, if not more so.

    So, what do we do now? Frankly, I think Legacy just is 4x Brainstorm + Fetches now. That isn't for everyone and I don't claim that everyone should like it. If it is not for you, then it just isn't. At this point though, it is almost like playing Vintage and hating Moxes. I mean, sure, you could. You could even demand they be banned and have a valid case. Except it just isn't going to happen.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  16. #22716
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...lpuff_st_place

    Post ban challenge

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  17. #22717

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Honest question: if they banned Brainstorm would the meta change all that much?

    Four Brainstorms becomes four Preordains. The decks running Brainstorm will lose a few % points to the non Brainstorm decks. However, being that most decks are Brainstorm decks, overall you will see no major change to the win rates and therefore likely no shift in the meta.

    Maybe I'm underestimating the downgrade of Brainstorm to Preordain?

  18. #22718

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    Honest question: if they banned Brainstorm would the meta change all that much?

    Four Brainstorms becomes four Preordains. The decks running Brainstorm will lose a few % points to the non Brainstorm decks. However, being that most decks are Brainstorm decks, overall you will see no major change to the win rates and therefore likely no shift in the meta.

    Maybe I'm underestimating the downgrade of Brainstorm to Preordain?
    Then ban ponder too.

  19. #22719

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    You could even demand they (moxes) be banned and have a valid case.
    conflate much? what ONE card in vintage could be a comparison to BS?

    I don't play vintage anymore, but when I did (type1), I hated mirror universe (mana burn during your untap phase, really!?!)
    It's apples to oranges since mirror universe just ended the game but BS just incentivizes blue stew in legacy.

  20. #22720

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Then ban ponder too.
    Or just play Modern if that's the format you want.

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