All B/R update speculation.

[Lemnear]

Like ReAnimator and Megadeus have said, decks such as Jund and Junk being viable would diversify Legacy. Jund should have a good matchup against Grixis cantrips, even with Brainstorm. They don’t show up because of a zoo of combo decks, especially the good ones with Brainstorm.

That's a lot of "ifs" assuming that

a) no non-brainstorm combo deck would be viable to keep Jund/Junk down.
b) Jund/Junk would actually be able to compete with Ponder+Preordain+Probe in regards to stability.
c) all blue-based combo decks would vanish without adapting.

I think that's far too optimistic, given that combo isn't big atm and Jund/Junk still can't profit from the sheer numbers of Grixis & Co in the meta. I can't quite see how these decks should be able to beat Grixis & Co with their usual method of "going big" if the DRS+BlueShell pile has a history of slapping 3cc and 4cc spells despite Daze and Wasteland being everywhere.

P.S.:

It's quite ridiculous to suggest killing of countless A+B combo decks as well as half the tempo archetypes, to "diversify Legacy" by MAYBE improve the position of certain other decks. It's outright possible that you achieve the opposite and just reduce options

[taconaut]

Both of these decks fit into the first category, giving up some speed for the ability to fire again and again or threatening to just turn dudes sideways for a few turns Like God Intended. Lands also plays some resistors out of the board.

Not to say a Survival unban would be The End of everything we know and love, but didn't we spend the last year of so hearing how a sorcery-speed value spell that does literal nothing until you untap is OP and must be banned? I was pretty mellow on legalizing Survival but now I'm not sure.

I don't think Lands playing resistors in the board is a counterargument; the point of sideboards is to adjust your main plan based on the meta.

As for the other point, it seems like you want to:

- not play cantrips or have your opponent playing cantrips
- not play fast combo
- not play blue in the abstract (but this might just be related to the first bullet)
- kill your opponent by attacking them with creatures
- play mostly spells that interact

Again, without any disrespect, why not play Modern or Standard, or even Limited? All of those formats are literally designed around the constraints I listed. Legacy is awesome because it is one of the few remaining formats to not be bound by those preferences.

Wizards caters to the "fair dudes and removal" approach in every other non-EDH and Vintage constructed format, so if they start making Legacy like that too, players like me (and many others) have to decide between shelling out an insane amount of money for Vintage (and then get shops'd anyway) or play multiplayer (and I love EDH too, it just doesn't fill the same niche Legacy does).

I'm not sure which sorcery-speed thing you are referring to? But yeah, I could totally be wrong, but I strongly suspect survival would not really do anything in Legacy as it currently exists - the card is super cool and I love playing it in Cube, but I dont think it would be competitive with what we already have.

[Barachai]

Again, without any disrespect, why not play Modern or Standard, or even Limited? All of those formats are literally designed around the constraints I listed. Legacy is awesome because it is one of the few remaining formats to not be bound by those preferences.

Wizards caters to the "fair dudes and removal" approach in every other non-EDH and Vintage constructed format, so if they start making Legacy like that too, players like me (and many others) have to decide between shelling out an insane amount of money for Vintage (and then get shops'd anyway) or play multiplayer (and I love EDH too, it just doesn't fill the same niche Legacy does).

Modern can be a real **** format for playing "fair dudes and removal". Really only Standard/Limited cater to such an approach.

I think the desire is to play "super-powered fair dudes and removal", which is admittedly a bit of a tall order (though I cannot deny the appeal).

[tescrin]

On the Jund Junk thing; it's really just a problem of Force. Force of Black n Green isn't a thing and it won't be; as will any on-the-stack-interesting-spell.

To make it properly competitive we need a Duress that is instant speed; preferably with an Unmask clause to pitch.

One thing I could see being an interesting green spell:

G - Polymorph Counterspell Thing
Exile Target (noncreature?) Spell. Its owner may reveal cards from the top of their library until they reveal another Spell with converted mana cost less than or equal to the exiled spell. If they do they may cast that card without paying its manacost. Place all revealed cards on the bottom of their owner's library in any order.

That would enable basically all of the non-U decks to interact on the stack in a new and meaningful way: Turning your spell into a different one. It's CDA like force, so you'll often be careful about using it. It's better against Cantrip/Combo decks than it is creature decks, etc.

The whole problem with non-blue is not T0; it's the stack. You either did something good enough to get to your next turn, or you die and you have no recourse. Aside from Surgical or another couple fringe cards; it's because Wizards shit the bed in regards to Blue and are unwilling to give instant speed interaction to other colors. That counterspell would enable REAL games between nonU midrange and Elves, REAL games between nonU midrange and SneakShow. The difference isn't even if you have it in hand; it's how they play.

When combo has to "respect you" because they haven't seen your hand yet or they know you can do something in their turn; they don't just shit in your neck with no repercussion. It's a real game. When you can only screw them on your own turn, they can therefore do whatever they want on their turn, meaning if they can win it's as simple as tapping their mana.

But we won't get cards like that. We won't get instant speed targeted discard (even with restrictions). We won't get stack interaction outside of Judge's Familiar and Mana Tithe which are 7 and 10 years old or so respectively.

Seriously though, B- Instant Duress would even be enough to even the odds by quite a bit I'd wager; even though it's pretty garbage compared to Force.

[Lemnear]

Stuff like Lifeforce, Avoid Fate, Guttural response, Pyroblasts, REB, Rebuff the Wicked, Burnout and others are non-blue counterspells

[Ace/Homebrew]

Stuff like Lifeforce, Avoid Fate, Guttural response, Pyroblasts, REB, Rebuff the Wicked, Burnout and others are non-blue counterspells

What's the difference between the ones you've mentioned and the following cards?

Cancel
Counterspell
Dissipate
Dissolve
Forbid
Force of Will

[Lemnear]

What's the difference between the ones you've mentioned and the following cards?

Cancel
Counterspell
Dissipate
Dissolve
Forbid
Force of Will

This isn't a discussion about card quality. It's just pointing at the fact that there is non-blue stack interaction to combat combo decks like SnT

[Claymore]

I think Wizards is starting to spread some of blue's pie out - Oath of Nissa - but the counter magic/stack interaction portion certainly is not moving at all. I feel like it's the most powerful ability in the pie chart, and not having it spread out is kind of a limitation of the game in general. Especially when other color abilities - powerful creatures, hand interaction - are now getting moved into blue anyway (Delver, Clique, True Name).

Not to mention that Blue by itself is able to handle any type of card in the game, whereas other colors have inherent limitations (artifacts, enchantments, creatures, etc).

[Zombie]

I think Wizards is starting to spread some of blue's pie out - Oath of Nissa - but the counter magic/stack interaction portion certainly is not moving at all. I feel like it's the most powerful ability in the pie chart, and not having it spread out is kind of a limitation of the game in general. Especially when other color abilities - powerful creatures, hand interaction - are now getting moved into blue anyway (Delver, Clique, True Name).

Not to mention that Blue by itself is able to handle any type of card in the game, whereas other colors have inherent limitations (artifacts, enchantments, creatures, etc).

Yeah, pretty much every green draw ever printed is attached to a body driving the cost up a ton or is self-terminating to the point of actively bottoming other copies of green draw, which means it just can't hope to compete with the constant uplift a cantrip shell provides. Glimpse is basically the only thing, and people have used Lead the Stampede in Pauper with similar intent - just make the card straight broken with a high creature density. But that has far more other costs than blue. Because hey, blue.

Can I have my flying/reach deathtouch Visionary already?

[Bithlord]

it's because Wizards shit the bed in regards to Blue and are unwilling to give instant speed interaction to other colors.

This is totally, and completely, correct. Counter-spell being a locked into blue ability is what leads to this. If it weren't, we could see alternative "force-esque" spells:

Red: 3RR - Counter target instant or sorcery spell. You may sacrifice a creature instead of paying the manacost of RedForce.
Green: 3GG - Counter target artifact or creature spell. You may sacrifice a land instead of paying the manacost of GreenForce.
Black: 3GG - Counter target spell. If you do, you lose life equal to the CMC of target spell. You may pay X life instead of paying the manacost of Blackforce, where X is the CMC of target spell.
White: 3WW - Counter target spell unless it's controller pays mana equal to it's CMC. You may discard a white card and pay 2 life instead of paying WhiteForce's manacost.

Templating issues, probably need the exile clause, but you get the gist. CounterSpells should be in all colors, just like creature removal of some sort *is* in all colors.

[pettdan]

As for the other point, it seems like you want to:

- not play cantrips or have your opponent playing cantrips
- not play fast combo
- not play blue in the abstract (but this might just be related to the first bullet)
- kill your opponent by attacking them with creatures
- play mostly spells that interact

Again, without any disrespect, why not play Modern or Standard, or even Limited? All of those formats are literally designed around the constraints I listed.

The problem with your argument is that every one of those assumptions are false, only talking for myself of course. (Some warrant further discussion, sure, but are in principle wrong).

I think I included that part in the summary of the discussion that I've posted and linked to twice in this thread, recently, and I still think everyone should consider the merits of a shared problem description with opposing views briefly summarized, it could help saving lots of time by avoiding misunderstandings, it would help us progress the discussion and mutual understanding of others' views AND help introduce less frequent readers. Well, that's it for this time..

[Lemnear]

Can I have my flying/reach deathtouch Visionary already?

Pls, a flying, deathtouching "Infernal Tutor for a random card in your deck"?

[Lord Seth]

Not to say a Survival unban would be The End of everything we know and love, but didn't we spend the last year of so hearing how a sorcery-speed value spell that does literal nothing until you untap is OP and must be banned? I was pretty mellow on legalizing Survival but now I'm not sure.

What sorcery are we talking about here?

[kinda]

What sorcery are we talking about here?

I'm guessing deathrite shaman?

[Lord Seth]

I'm guessing deathrite shaman?

Ah, that would make sense.

The description isn't true, though. Deathrite Shaman doesn't do "literal nothing" until you untap because a 1/2 is capable of blocking.

[Fox]

I think we can all agree that, to help non-blue get countermagic, they must unban SDT and ban Counterbalance. One must never forget the power of the MonkeyBlast (sometimes also called Force of Ape) which Painter decks would levy. There's no need to make some new FoW variant as it already exists @Bithlord.

Any time people are unhappy about the state of legacy, deep down it's probably because they don't have enough Painter in their meta.

[taconaut]

The ban Brainstorm camp wants to remove the one card that seems to homogenize the format into: cards that use Brainstorm to achieve superior consistency, and decks that try to fight that consistency advantage. The latter has been limited to decks using Chalice/Thalia/Vial or super redundant decks such as Lands/Elves/Burn. A third category is graveyard based combo or synergy decks. These people think that a meta defined by Brainstorm and anti-Brainstorm strategies is too narrow, and that removing Brainstorm would weaken the blue shell enough that other competing strategies than the anti-Brainstorm and graveyard-based strategies would flourish. The anti-Brainstorm camp values a diversity of the format that enables other strategies than those that use Brainstorm, different as they may be, and those that try to compete with Brainstorm. Such other strategies could be the Rock, Nic Fit, Painter, Maverick, Zoo, Pox, Goblins, Cloudpost, any glass-cannon combo deck, Jund, and above all the decks that haven't been invented due to the blue shell supremacy. This would include diversity well beyond strategic diversity.

I bolded the parts of your summary that are relevant, and that align with the assumptions I made. You establish a legacy phylogeny of:

- Cantrip Decks
- Cantrip-Hate Decks
- Graveyard-based Combo or Synergy Decks

Then, you say you don't want to play those. OK, that reflects these assumptions:

As for the other point, it seems like you want to:

- not play cantrips or have your opponent playing cantrips
- not play fast combo

Then, you cite a list of other decks you DO want to play; this is commendable, because many of the other Ban-Brainstorm camp people simply decline to do so. I was happy Barachai addressed this as well, because it's true that some of the unfair decks in modern give "duders&removal.dec" a hard time, too. Your list was:

Such other strategies could be the Rock, Nic Fit, Painter, Maverick, Zoo, Pox, Goblins, Cloudpost, any glass-cannon combo deck, Jund, and above all the decks that haven't been invented due to the blue shell supremacy.

With the exception of "glass cannon combo," these reflect the following assumptions:

As for the other point, it seems like you want to:

- not play blue in the abstract (but this might just be related to the first bullet)
- kill your opponent by attacking them with creatures
- play mostly spells that interact

So I feel very safe with my list of assumptions, and have read from the summary you're citing.

...a possible interpretation would be that the players in the pro-Brainstorm camp value the technical aspects of the playing experience higher, while players in the ban-Brainstorm camp value the format diversity and room for innovation in deck building higher.

Again, I understand that you don't agree, but strategically diverse is the only truly relevant kind of diverse. Legacy is currently strategically diverse, so there isn't any reason to ban a card to get more colors (or some other arbitrary diversity measure) than there are now.

With respect to the deck building innovation, that has less to do with any one card and more to do with the weight of 25 years of the best cards ever printed (minus completely busted things like P9) being available in Legacy. It's difficult to innovate with new things because the best things have been the best things for a while, and Wizards is much more careful now about what they print. If you're interested in a format that changes more quickly, I'm happy to report that there exists a format that not only removes entire sets on a regular basis, but also bans cards on top of that! As a bonus, that format also has no cantrips, and is largely based on the combat step! Welcome to Standard.

I personally hope they try to give legacy the diversity that I am envious of modern for.

I whisper once more unto the indifferent ocean, "why not play Modern, then?"

[pettdan]

@Taconaut: that's a nice long post! I see you address my attempted summary/overview, thanks, I'll get back to you but it'll be a few days as I'm travelling, going to wedding etc.

[Megadeus]

I for one have made a switch to modern but it isn't the same. That said in Atlanta our weekly event has dwindled down to ten people when it was in the high teens to mid twenties for a couple years, and apparently today's monthly event has 6. Format is garbage and still losing popularity

[kinda]

Yeah I started playing modern a few months ago for the first time since 2015...it's OK but legacy is clearly more fun imo.