View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #20881
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    I have to beg to differ here, Hanni. I don't recall people complaining about brewing in Legacy until maybe 2012 or 2013, and I think that correlates to the naturally increasing power level of the format. WOTC's main lever to control the format's power level is to ban cards, and WOTC mostly chose to be hands-off with Legacy until the DRS and Probe ban. I, too, enjoy brewing in Legacy and feel it can be done, but I concede the point that it's harder to do so now than it was in the past.
    I'm pretty sure this had more to do with the increase in popularity and format support by WotC and outfits like SCG than anything related to power level. More event coverage started happening, more pros started playing Legacy, and boom, everything started becoming more streamlined.
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  2. #20882
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    To be fair, I don't think Miracles necessarily needed both Terminus and Counterbalance to be banned, I was simply stating that those were the busted cards. I think banning Terminus would have been sufficient to knock down Miracles enough without outright killing it.
    While this is possibly true, they have in the past tried to ban cards around an issue and leave the issue untouched. It ends up being a farce most of the time. (Gush in place of Mentor, just to see Mentor go soon after.) This is why it was going to be top. You hit one card in place of banning one, then maybe later banning another. You don't have to like it, but that tends to be the rule on these things. Outside of Vintage that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    As far as Snapcaster Mage is concerned, it is fueling the best decks in the format right now. Almost every blue midrange and control deck is playing multiple copies, and the cards power level is typically higher than everything else, cantrips aside. Specifically, it is an integral part of Miracles and Grixis Control, which appear to be the new best decks in the format right now. I'm not saying that I think Snapcaster should be banned, mind you. I'm simply stating that I believe it will be the next card on the chopping block if those decks remain the best for a long enough period of time.
    Fueling is not something I agree with. Snapcaster is very good at what it does, but it's a single use rebuy, not an issue of itself. Snapcaster is not an enabler, it's shall we say, a junkie, getting its fix off other broken things.

    Snapcaster to me is a card that would only get banned if something else is intentionally not being banned. Because Snapcaster is only as broken as that it feeds off, those other cards themselves being the "Issue" in question. Note the quotations, I don't see Snapcaster as an issue.
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  3. #20883
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I think the power of Snapcaster Mage is being downplayed a little bit here. I am convinced Snapcaster is not only better than a 'one time rebuy', it's an actual engine. It's a way to scale up efficient spells into the mid-late game without compromising the power level of those same spells (ie playing something worse to get additional copies.) A card that lets you play up to 8 Brainstorms, 8 Lightning Bolts, 8 Swords to Plowshares, and really just 5+ of any spell. It's an engine, and arguably the best control engine in magic's history (seeing as how it was dominant in Standard, sees widespread play in Modern, and sees widespread play in Legacy.) I am not calling for a ban, but give credit where it's due. Snapcaster mage is a sublime example of incredibly good card design. I wish WOTC would do more cards like this.
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  4. #20884
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    While this is possibly true, they have in the past tried to ban cards around an issue and leave the issue untouched. It ends up being a farce most of the time. (Gush in place of Mentor, just to see Mentor go soon after.) This is why it was going to be top. You hit one card in place of banning one, then maybe later banning another. You don't have to like it, but that tends to be the rule on these things. Outside of Vintage that is.


    Fueling is not something I agree with. Snapcaster is very good at what it does, but it's a single use rebuy, not an issue of itself. Snapcaster is not an enabler, it's shall we say, a junkie, getting its fix off other broken things.

    Snapcaster to me is a card that would only get banned if something else is intentionally not being banned. Because Snapcaster is only as broken as that it feeds off, those other cards themselves being the "Issue" in question. Note the quotations, I don't see Snapcaster as an issue.
    Let's say Grixis Control goes on to become the defacto best deck in the format, and remains that way for a while, with Miracles trailing closely behind. Given the trend WotC has set, let's pretend they are looking to ban a card. What card do you ban, if not Snapcaster Mage?
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  5. #20885
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Let's say Grixis Control goes on to become the defacto best deck in the format, and remains that way for a while, with Miracles trailing closely behind. Given the trend WotC has set, let's pretend they are looking to ban a card. What card do you ban, if not Snapcaster Mage?
    Prolly Ponder, because WotC was short on including Ponder in their speech on Brainstorm.

    It's ridiculous that we talk about Snappy in the first place, because that's just the usual headchopping i critizise for years.
    Last edited by Lemnear; 12-14-2018 at 01:10 PM.
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  6. #20886

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Let's say Grixis Control goes on to become the defacto best deck in the format, and remains that way for a while, with Miracles trailing closely behind. Given the trend WotC has set, let's pretend they are looking to ban a card. What card do you ban, if not Snapcaster Mage?
    I mean, obligatory "obviously Brainstorm," right?

    If we assume it's a sacred cow, then Snaps makes the most sense. I'd be sad to see either go, though.

    EDIT: Forgot about Ponder, that could also fill in. Would also be sad.

  7. #20887
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    There isn't a PT Legacy event in the scheduled future though, is there?
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  8. #20888
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Death's Shadow did a hard rise, hard drop (for now) in the format as well. It's great that the PT basically enabled that deck, and it would be great to have others shake it up again in the future. So I think this remark about the PT is incredibly relevant to the discussion on bans.

    Regarding the 'head-chopping' mentality, I loathe it as much as Dice_Box. I want more cards like Snapcaster Mage, not fewer.
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  9. #20889
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    @Mr.Safety more cards like SCM would be great *once* they print ETB-value scum hate. Give me Torpor Orb the land and it'll be great. I think we've all seen enough value-derping with Strix, Snapcaster, and company.

    Self-interest aside (I play dreads after all), hate like this needs to be printed to allow more space to play creatures like Goyf, Goose, Shadow, etc and more interesting cards like Mangara, KotR, JVP, etc.

  10. #20890
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Let's say Grixis Control goes on to become the defacto best deck in the format, and remains that way for a while, with Miracles trailing closely behind. Given the trend WotC has set, let's pretend they are looking to ban a card. What card do you ban, if not Snapcaster Mage?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Snapcaster to me is a card that would only get banned if something else is intentionally not being banned. Because Snapcaster is only as broken as that it feeds off, those other cards themselves being the "Issue" in question. Note the quotations, I don't see Snapcaster as an issue.
    If Snappy gets Banned, its not because Snappy needs a ban, it is because it is taking the bullet for something that does. BBE in place of DRS style.
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  11. #20891

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    If Snappy gets Banned, its not because Snappy needs a ban, it is because it is taking the bullet for something that does. BBE in place of DRS style.
    I mean, Aaron Forsythe has said that by any metric Brainstorm should be banned. Obviously, Brainstorm will never be banned banned. As far as I’m concerned, until we get to a point where Brainstorm shouldn’t be banned under normal circumstances, then yeah, there are plenty of cards that can feasibly take Brainstorm’s place on the banlist and Snapcaster is absolutely a card that could be banned in the future if certain cards get printed.

  12. #20892

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I’d be a bit sad if brainstorm gets banned. Like with the banning of top, it makes some janky decks completely unplayable (doomsday et al).

    Does anyone have an idea why some of those top of deck tutors are banned (mystical, vampiric...)? They’re good, but are they on the same league as treasure cruise, DTT, survival?


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  13. #20893
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Yes to the tutors, too good.
    -rob

  14. #20894
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    @Mr.Safety more cards like SCM would be great *once* they print ETB-value scum hate. Give me Torpor Orb the land and it'll be great. I think we've all seen enough value-derping with Strix, Snapcaster, and company.

    Self-interest aside (I play dreads after all), hate like this needs to be printed to allow more space to play creatures like Goyf, Goose, Shadow, etc and more interesting cards like Mangara, KotR, JVP, etc.
    I completely disagree; creature-based strategies/interactions keep Legacy from devolving to a format without maindeck removal, where discard and countermagic are the only interactions because the only creatures worth getting onto the battlefield are Griselbrand, Marit Lage, and Emrakul. When combat stops mattering the format will be officially suck-ass bad. Zoo and Rock aren't really viable decks anymore but combat is still incredibly important for most decks.

    You want Torpor Orb? Play Torpor Orb! You want a creature that does it? Hushwing Gryff! It even has flash and a 2/1 body attached! Or we could just allow these value-adding creatures to keep the format spicy. Value-derping is literally what Magic was created to be, at least in a large part. Getting it on a land would be ok if it's a Bojuka Bog-type of ability (or honestly, better as a 'sacrifice this land: get Torpor Orb until end of turn) but going back to lands like Karakas, Tabernacle, and Maze of Ith will probably never happen, and probably shouldn't. If we've learned anything from Mental Misstep, Gitaxian Probe, and the delve mechanic getting things for free/way under the going rate is dangerous territory.
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  15. #20895

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I completely disagree; creature-based strategies/interactions keep Legacy from devolving to a format without maindeck removal, where discard and countermagic are the only interactions because the only creatures worth getting onto the battlefield are Griselbrand, Marit Lage, and Emrakul. When combat stops mattering the format will be officially suck-ass bad. Zoo and Rock aren't really viable decks anymore but combat is still incredibly important for most decks.

    You want Torpor Orb? Play Torpor Orb! You want a creature that does it? Hushwing Gryff! It even has flash and a 2/1 body attached! Or we could just allow these value-adding creatures to keep the format spicy. Value-derping is literally what Magic was created to be, at least in a large part. Getting it on a land would be ok if it's a Bojuka Bog-type of ability (or honestly, better as a 'sacrifice this land: get Torpor Orb until end of turn) but going back to lands like Karakas, Tabernacle, and Maze of Ith will probably never happen, and probably shouldn't. If we've learned anything from Mental Misstep, Gitaxian Probe, and the delve mechanic getting things for free/way under the going rate is dangerous territory.
    If value-derping is "literally what Magic was created to be"[Citation Needed] then why can't I also try to get some value off my Torpor orb? Right now it's a card that does nothing on it's own, and giving it a body just gives people more ways to kill the do-nothing artifact.
    And this is coming from a guy who's been sleeving up torpor-orbs and dreadnoughts for YEARS.

  16. #20896
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by schweinefettmann View Post
    I’d be a bit sad if brainstorm gets banned. Like with the banning of top, it makes some janky decks completely unplayable (doomsday et al).

    Does anyone have an idea why some of those top of deck tutors are banned (mystical, vampiric...)? They’re good, but are they on the same league as treasure cruise, DTT, survival?


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    Somewhat offtopic, but doomsday wasn't completely dead after the top ban. Losing probe, though, wasn't a final nail in its coffin, it was a goddamn nuke.

    What bothers me about these bans is that they were supposedly meant to dethrone the top decks of the format, giving more decks a chance to shine, but it feels like the weaker decks lost more than the kings, and some of them just went extinct.

  17. #20897
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    All 4 human beings on earth who played Doomsday in 2018 must have taken it pretty hard.

  18. #20898
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by heat_wave View Post
    Somewhat offtopic, but doomsday wasn't completely dead after the top ban. Losing probe, though, wasn't a final nail in its coffin, it was a goddamn nuke.

    What bothers me about these bans is that they were supposedly meant to dethrone the top decks of the format, giving more decks a chance to shine, but it feels like the weaker decks lost more than the kings, and some of them just went extinct.
    It's a logic result of banning the cards SEVERAL decks played instead of the cards just the top deck plays.

    Removing DRS did more harm to non-blue decks like Elves than to Grixis and BUG for examples. Similar applies to Probe and many other cards over the years, who took bullets in place of Ponder/Brainstorm/Fetchlands.

    In all honest, even if Brainstorm is a holy cow, it's still absurd to ban Probe instead of Ponder (not arguing for a Ponder ban. You all know that I am convinced chopping random cantrips does jackshit for non-blue decks position in the meta)
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  19. #20899
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    In all honest, even if Brainstorm is a holy cow, it's still absurd to ban Probe instead of Ponder (not arguing for a Ponder ban. You all know that I am convinced chopping random cantrips does jackshit for non-blue decks position in the meta)
    That really makes no logical sense, unless you presuppose that Probe was only banned because it is a cantrip. I can't fathom how that could be true.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    @Mr. Safety my suggestion is not anti-creature, nor does it have anything to do with removal. I merely stated that cards should exist which reduce ETB value creatures to their stat line, such that if you want to play magic that way you know that a deck using good stat lines and/or abilities can just hate you out (until you're willing to play the Wasteland/Port/Blood Moon game).

    Very confused by the Zoo comment, as a Torpor Orb land would mostly favor their strategy of Goblin Guide and Wild Nactyl last I checked. Maybe they also played SFM and that's what you're referencing? As I recall Zoo mostly is kept out by Terminus, Strix, and TNN; strats fairly synonymous with SCM, Strix, and SFM. [TKS strats probably not helping Zoo either]

    You've also talked about how Grisel/Emmy/Lage would take over and be the only playable creatures - not sure how a Torpor Orb land that's friendly to Goyfs, Goose, and other beefy boy strats helps the former. Also highly doubt that aside from Crop Rot users that we'd see Torpor Orb land in Grisel/Emmy lists.

    A land like this honestly seems perfectly fine since it's tap for colorless at best. Release it in a commander set as legacy/vintage/commander have plenty of land killers. Magic is about fundamentally warping the rules for your benefit and to the opponents detriment, not sure why forcing your ETB value opponent to stick to the stat line instead of a rather mindless value orgy is a bad thing. Those creatures are pushing out others, they deserve the hate.

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