All B/R update speculation.

[Sidneyious]

With as much whining here in almost think the lot of you don't like MTG as it is and want your version of mtg to happen which is actually another game not MTG.

[Nielsie]

But I cannot understand the point. If you want a format where all of the good cantrips are banned, you already have Modern. Brainstorm and DRS may be in a lot of decks, and definitely perform better in larger events by reducing variance, but the metagame itself is extremely diverse, and has been in a constant state of flux since Top got banned. The Top 8 of EW may have looked bad, but look at the Top 64. Is there really anything wrong with Legacy?

I don't think anyone wants a format with all cantrips banned, who is asking for this? The Xerox engine should just be turned down a notch so that other engines have a proper chance and maybe then we will see more people picking up their pet-deck again in place of playing some Xerox shit because they have given up on trying to beat it and just joined it instead.

[Lemnear]

The Xerox engine should just be turned down a notch so that other engines have a proper chance and maybe then we will see more people picking up their pet-deck again

Chop the hydras head until decks like Zoo have "a proper chance", then ban Nacatl because Baloth.dec wants "a proper chance" too.

Sorry but since when is pet deck viability any argument?

[Crimhead]

People that defend brainstorm seem to think #SkillIntensive is a criteria for whether or not a card is ban worthy.

Same as people who want to see a ban that hits Probe, CotV, or anything from S&T.

Some people want to argue that the banned list should make Legacy fun, interesting and challenging - not simply balanced. I get that, but I find it too subjective to be worth much consideration.

eg, I personally find Legacy more challenging and interesting if I am forced to radically alter my lines of play vs many different play-styles; and I am more concerned with the range of skills required over many matches than I am about the occasional "non-game" ruining an individual match.

The most difficult decks to play I have personally found are those with both a direct goal and Tutors. What I mean by that is a deck like TES, Elves or Lands have a very dedicated and streamlined endpoint, but these deck tend to have a simple way to stop them. So you have to know how to play against the whole format, not just against a given opponent.

The tutors magnify the difficulty. While they offer solutions to issues, they also offer potential answers to yet asked questions. Looking for the wrong thing without the safety net of filtering for more answers is often a win or lose choice. That might be the only tutor you see all game and knowing the format, if you should push you goal or seek a a pre-emptive response to a known issue is hard. (The reason I include TES is because a lot of these targets are not in your main, so it feels much the same at times.)

There is a skill to any deck, honed over years of testing and trial. If you need proof go watch Sully on his "Best of SCG Live" video. A master-class in how to play burn. Some though are far easier than others. U/R Delver is not a complex deck to play, nor is B/R Reanimator. But that doesn't mean that there are not lines that have been long mastered by others I would never see.

Personally, I think the hardest deck to play optimally in Legacy is Elves.

Worst thing about the SDT ban is that I'm constantly forced to agree with Dice about the format.

Yeah, I've said it before, the format is binary, you play prison/taxing with chalice or similar (thalia) or you play brainstorm, or you lose.

Elves is a good deck.

Other exceptions would be other non-blue combo (Reanimator, Dredge), and aggro decks like Burn (obviously not much aggro in Legacy these days).

But I mostly agree. If you are running a fair deck and you are not leaning on 12+ cantrips, you generally gain more than you lose by altering your curve and making room for CotV.

Yeah because you actually build your deck from scratch each time... Most chalice decks are 90+% fixed like most other decks, where is the skill in copying a sucessful list?

I believe there is a lot of skill in Legacy around tweaking your 75 to effectively play in your meta. This applies to most decks (CotV or otherwise), but I get that some decks have less flexibility than others.

Sorry but since when is pet deck viability any argument?

It isn't. But variety of viable decks is an argument. While I do not agree, I think he is saying that too many deck building styles have been reduced to "pet deck" status, while too many tier decks are built too similarly.

[MorphBerlin]

Yeah, I've said it before, the format is binary, you play prison/taxing with chalice or similar (thalia) or you play brainstorm, or you lose.

Elves? BR Reanimator? Turbodephts?

[Lemnear]

It isn't. But variety of viable decks is an argument. While I do not agree, I think he is saying that too many deck building styles have been reduced to "pet deck" status, while too many tier decks are built too similarly.

You sure already know that I am in favor of a diverse format in terms of cores/engines and that I opposed the Miracles vs Decay format as much as a format full of DRS mirrormatches.

I am just convinced that the constant call for "nerfs" of dominant strategies rather than pinpoint bans to get rid of issues, would get us down the line of Modern, which kept banning every card making it to the top of the format.

If WotC considers DRS+discard too good in terms of beating combo, control, graveyard Mechanics, attrition decks and tempo strategies at the same time, there is no need to beat around the bush, but point that an over-the-curve P/T, 1 mana Planeswalker which provides Mainboard hate, combat stats, range, manaacceleration and rainbow mana has a negative effect of streamlining brought to the format. I know of a dood running DRS' instead of Lotus Petals in his ANT for god sake.

While the banning of SDT has brought back a bit of diversity overall and lowered the reliance on Decay, the overall dominance of DRS remained

[Echelon]

Meh, DRS is fine. It gives non-blue decks a tool to do some damage vs. GY strategies and combo.

If you want to stop seeing DRS just stop playing Reanimator/ANT/cantrips/fetchlands (i.e. everything that enables it). Just drop a bunch of creatures w/ toughness >= 2 and trample and enjoy .

Otherwise, accept that DRS is the price you pay for playing fetchlands and the cantrip cartel.

[Megadeus]

Yes all those non blue deathrite decks... all of those 1 maverick in the top 16 once a month. And... those other deathrite decks that don't run blue like... elves I guess?

[Echelon]

Yes all those non blue deathrite decks... all of those 1 maverick in the top 16 once a month. And... those other deathrite decks that don't run blue like... elves I guess?

Fortunately those decks do prey on the blue DRS decks. And then fold to the blue decks that don't run DRS (and/or Delver).

Seriously, the bitching about DRS is just stupid. It thrives in the meta as it is. If you want to see less of it, stop enabling it.

Perhaps a new meta predator that starts w/ 4 Pithing Needle, 4 Sorcerous Spyglass and 4 Phyrexian Revoker? T1, drop Needle on Wasteland, then just start picking of fetchlands as you see them coming up. A bunch of Thought-Knot Seers to pick off stuff a few turns later. Be creative.

[Hanni]

Fortunately those decks do prey on the blue DRS decks. And then fold to the blue decks that don't run DRS (and/or Delver).

Seriously, the bitching about DRS is just stupid. It thrives in the meta as it is. If you want to see less of it, stop enabling it.

Perhaps a new meta predator that starts w/ 4 Pithing Needle, 4 Sorcerous Spyglass and 4 Phyrexian Revoker? T1, drop Needle on Wasteland, then just start picking of fetchlands as you see them coming up. A bunch of Thought-Knot Seers to pick off stuff a few turns later. Be creative.

Suppression Field

[Echelon]

Suppression Field

Meh, can't be cast off Sol land. And it forces you to mess w/ your own list. I want Inventors' Fair to be a thing.

[CptHaddock]

Fortunately those decks do prey on the blue DRS decks. And then fold to the blue decks that don't run DRS (and/or Delver).

Seriously, the bitching about DRS is just stupid. It thrives in the meta as it is. If you want to see less of it, stop enabling it.

Perhaps a new meta predator that starts w/ 4 Pithing Needle, 4 Sorcerous Spyglass and 4 Phyrexian Revoker? T1, drop Needle on Wasteland, then just start picking of fetchlands as you see them coming up. A bunch of Thought-Knot Seers to pick off stuff a few turns later. Be creative.

It seems pretty normal to design a deck around the pithing needle effects rather than just play more removal for DRS or more nonbasic hate.

[Echelon]

It seems pretty normal to design a deck around the pithing needle effects rather than just play more removal for DRS or more nonbasic hate.

Meh, everything dies to removal. Removal never stopped anyone or solved anything (and obviously only fuels the DRS, only motivating the DRS v. DRS MU we suddenly care about. Delver v. Delver was fine, but now the non-blue players are joining in on the fun creature X v. creature X is a problem). And what are you going to do with your removal if your opponent doesn't play creatures?

[Lemnear]

Fortunately those decks do prey on the blue DRS decks. And then fold to the blue decks that don't run DRS (and/or Delver).

Seriously, the bitching about DRS is just stupid. It thrives in the meta as it is. If you want to see less of it, stop enabling it.

Eh? Don't tell me you suggest people should stop playing fetches, instants and sorceries to "fight" enemy DRS, if "running your own DRS" is such a handy way to do so instead.

It sounds like suggesting MD Tormods Crypt to fight Treasure Cruise, rather than just running your own Cruise, advancing your own gameplan and mitigate the opponents potential delve spells

[Echelon]

Eh? Don't tell me you suggest people should stop playing fetches, instants and sorceries to "fight" enemy DRS, if "running your own DRS" is such a handy way to do so instead.

It sounds like suggesting MD Tormods Crypt to fight Treasure Cruise, rather than just running your own Cruise, advancing your own gameplan and mitigate the opponents potential delve spells

I'm telling you to have some fucking fun with it and see where you might end up rather than sitting around on your ass and bitch that the world doesn't change itself for your convenience .

Besides, if DRS has to go, so do Brainstorm and Ponder. The best way to beat a Brainstorm deck is to run your own Brainstorms, so why not get rid of those too while we're at it? We can keep Daze and FoW since the format needs policing, but that's it.

[Hanni]

I can tell you from my own personal experience why I play with Deathrite Shaman. The purpose here is to explain why I believe so many people are playing it.

First and foremost, the graveyard hating part is just ancillary, and not why I'm playing it.

The primary reason is because of the prevalence of Wasteland, and to a lesser extent, Daze, Thalia, Port, etc. If the format wasn't as saturated with mana denial to cause non-games, I'd be less inclined to play DRS. Not to say that a one-mana planeswalker that does as many things as DRS isn't powerful regardless, but the big push for me to play it, is that I feel that it's necessary for any midrange deck that wants to perform well against the current metagame.

tl;dr We can argue that Brainstorm or fetchlands or whatever else are enabling Deathrite Shaman, but honestly, I think it's the over-representation of mana denial that is the biggest driver for the ubiquity of DRS.

[Echelon]

tl;dr We can argue that Brainstorm or fetchlands or whatever else are enabling Deathrite Shaman, but honestly, I think it's the over-representation of mana denial that is the biggest driver for the ubiquity of DRS.

Then give up your combo MU and play Nic Fit, you Muppet .

Your other option is to go w/ Manaless Dredge. It doesn't care about mana denial and very little about DRS.

Mana denial - it's the price you pay for wanting to play w/ fetchlands & 3 colour manabases. Don't want to deal with mana denial? Play something that doesn't care about it. Come on people, it's not that hard. Wasteland is only a card b/c everyone and their grandmother keeps playing non-basics. And why does Manaless Dredge have such an easy G1 vs. decks that run mana denial? B/c it can simply ignore it. In a meta filled w/ Manaless Dredge, Wasteland is a very bad card. And TES is king.

[Hanni]

Then give up your combo MU and play Nic Fit, you Muppet .

Your other option is to go w/ Manaless Dredge.

Mana denial - it's the price you pay for wanting to play w/ fetchlands & 3 colour manabases. Don't want to deal with mana denial? Play something that doesn't care about it. Come on people, it's not that hard.

Nic Fit put two players into Top 16, almost into Top 8. Which further illustrates my point about mana denial. If you're going to play something midrange, you need to be able to consistently develop your mana or you just lose to decks like Delver, D&T, Lands, etc.

Also, I do have a Nic Fit brew I was working on... I call it Nic-Flow, because it's based around Destructive Flow. However, I'm quite content playing decks with blue in big events. Unlike most of the people that post in here, I love playing blue decks. I've been playing blue decks in Legacy since I started playing the format in 2006, and I feel most comfortable playing with them.

EDIT: About the mana denial comment you made... I was simply explaining why I believe DRS is over-represnted right now. I want to play 3 and 4 color decks, some greedy, some not... but if I want to play one and be competitive, I feel like I need DRS in order to do so, else I lose to the mana denial of the format. Why should I have to play Manaless Dredge to beat Wasteland? I'll just run a playset of DRS and call it a day.

[Megadeus]

I don't think anyone hates playing blue. I think people hate the fact that the format is at a point that you either play blue or play chalice or you die

[Hanni]

I don't think anyone hates playing blue. I think people hate the fact that the format is at a point that you either play blue or play chalice or you die

Looking at the top 64 of Eternal Weekend, the top 32 of the SCG Open, and the top 16 of the SCG Classic, everything looks great to me. Plenty of diversity, a good mix of different archetypes, and tons of non-blue decks did well. If the 30+ different decks represented aren't enough to satisfy, nothing ever will. Top finally got banned to fix the format, but for some, that wasn't enough. Maybe a Brainstorm ban quells them for a little while, but I doubt it. There will always be something keeping someone's pet deck from being Tier 0, and there will never be an end to the ban X or ban Y arguments. The world is not enough.

In the meantime, I will continue to enjoy the format in its current state, and continue to brew.