View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 920 of 1178 FirstFirst ... 4208208709109169179189199209219229239249309701020 ... LastLast
Results 18,381 to 18,400 of 23542

Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #18381
    Some dipshit of a Moderator.
    Dice_Box's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2013
    Location

    A Tabernacle in some random Valley.
    Posts

    4,843

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    What I think would happen.

    Fastlands and Filterlands become playable in Legacy and while the amount of basics that are in the format will increase, the difficulty in locating them means they will feel less impactful.

    Decks like Stompy, Big Red, Lands and other Punishers win.

    Decks held together with DRS, Brainstorm or Veteran Explorer lose out.

    Lands, a deck with 3 fetches in it feels limited impact. The deck moves to 4 Duals and 2 Forest, it is forced to Ghost Quarter itself in the face of Bloodmoon more though as it no longer can fetch basics.

    After 6 to 9 months debate on banning Loam becomes a common sight in this thread. No one mentions Brainstorm any more.

    Moon, Back to Basics, Loam and Crucible become all stars.

    Could be wrong, with any luck we'll never know.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  2. #18382

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Another thing to consider when banning fetches is that, while brainstorm would certainly be less powerful, the impact of the secondary cantrips is greater - if you want to be playing three colors, it'd probably be Uxx, because stuff like ponder gets much stronger when a big part of winning is finding the right colors. Unless you're playing loam, like Dice is describing, cantrips would still probably be the best way to fix.

  3. #18383
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,246

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    Another thing to consider when banning fetches is that, while brainstorm would certainly be less powerful, the impact of the secondary cantrips is greater - if you want to be playing three colors, it'd probably be Uxx, because stuff like ponder gets much stronger when a big part of winning is finding the right colors. Unless you're playing loam, like Dice is describing, cantrips would still probably be the best way to fix.
    Preordain and Ponder/Portent get significantly better than Brainstorm because of scry and shuffle effects. Getting Brainstorm locked sometimes still happens even with 7-8 fetchlands and alternative shuffle effects (like Stoneforge Mystic.)
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  4. #18384

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Decks like Stompy, Big Red, Lands and other Punishers win.
    Would they ? On the short term yes, but with manabases forcibly fairer, it's not an argument I would say is obvious on the long term. Today Blood Moon is a house because the opponent's only out is its what, two basics in the remaining ~50 cards of his deck. Depending on who goes first maybe you've been able to secure one before it dropped but you're still quite cut from your colors.

    Now with a deck with probably 8-9 basics (if not more if it's a two color deck), chances for your opponent to actually find two in the first ten cards are not insignificant at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    After 6 to 9 months debate on banning Loam becomes a common sight in this thread.
    :)
    Last edited by Jander78; 02-20-2018 at 06:13 PM. Reason: Deleted flames.
    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    140x Relentless Rats
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Bleiweiss
    I wish that Wizards would have just gone ahead and done away with the Reserved List entirely. It is nothing but a blight on the game and one that long outlived its purpose. [...] I am wholeheartedly in favor of getting rid of the Reserved List and reprinting higher-dollar staple cards from EDH and Legacy. Pete Hoefling the owner of StarCityGames.com agrees with my point of view as well.
    - Ben Bleiweiss, SCG General Manager, Feb 2010

  5. #18385

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The sad thing is I'd probably still try to play Knight of the Reliquary with fetches gone :( #4canopy4wasteland

  6. #18386
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,246

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds bitches.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  7. #18387
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2015
    Location

    The woods again
    Posts

    1,096

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds bitches.
    Pithing Needle and Sorcerous Spyglass would suddenly crush everything.

    I both think that would be the funniest thing ever and that the format would be hideous.
    All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
    PM me if you want to contribute!
    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    Just in time for Valentines Day 💝

    Roses are red, violets are blue
    Omae wa mou shindeiru
    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Quick question, are you also still waiting for the great pumpkin it did you finally pick it in once December hit?
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.

  8. #18388
    Member
    Matsu's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2016
    Location

    Forever dark woods
    Posts

    203

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Pithing Needle and Sorcerous Spyglass would suddenly crush everything.

    I both think that would be the funniest thing ever and that the format would be hideous.
    Why it will be hideous?
    Focusing on Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wild is the wrong way to go. I will never include those cards in my deck.

    People always forget the slow fetchlands from Mirage:

    Flood Plain
    Bad River
    Rocky Tar Pit
    Mountain Valley
    Grasslands

    This will reduce the speed of decks using Brainstorm, turn 2 TNN/Leo, Storm, etc.

    Like i said in my previous post Wotc already had printed the cards. They only have to make the right decision, and push the format in a way it will be more accessible and still fun.
    Fast fetchlands allow to increase the speed of decks with Blue thanks to cantrips. Fair decks that do not use blue have to tax the opponent or use discard spells.

    So the Fetchland will not go, the speed will go. You will not be able to play 12 Fetchlands and 6 Duals. You will probably change to 6 fetchlands/6 duals/6 basics or gold lands so you can have fast start and filter your deck in the mid game or after controlling the board in the first two/three turns. This still will allow TNN turn 2, but it will be less frequent.
    Brainstorm will become clunky, but still available. With cards like Stoneforge mistic/traverse the ulvenvald/Slow fetch/etc you will be able to sculpt your hand just at a slower rate and less effective. It will definitely increase the difficulty of the format. But this is want we want at the end.

    Play the Royal format of the game.
    High Skill/ High Difficulty/ High Experience/ High Reward.
    Last edited by Jander78; 02-20-2018 at 06:15 PM. Reason: Added card tags

  9. #18389

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
    Why it will be hideous?
    People always forget the slow fetchlands from Mirage:

    Flood Plain
    Bad River
    Rocky Tar Pit
    Mountain Valley
    Grasslands
    I would love to face those cards with my Lands deck, although it might be too much like shooting fish in a barrel.
    Supremacy 2020 is the modern era game of nuclear brinksmanship! My blog:
    https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com

    You can play Lands.dec in EDH too! My primer:
    http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/t...lara-lands-dec

  10. #18390
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,246

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    In two, maybe three, color decks there is always the Panorama lands as well like Bant Panorama. It enters untapped and gives you colorless, or fetches a basic tapped if you need it to. The fact that it hits 3 different land types means it's slow but effective. Same with the shard/wedge lands like Jungle Shrine and Mystic Monastery.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  11. #18391
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,246

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    I would love to face those cards with my Lands deck, although it might be too much like shooting fish in a barrel.
    Pithing Needle shows up in all sideboards for Port/Wasteland/Stage. Game 1, rough shape though. I think someone above mentioned that Lands becomes incredible in a fetchless metagame, which I agree with.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  12. #18392
    Member
    Matsu's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2016
    Location

    Forever dark woods
    Posts

    203

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    In two, maybe three, color decks there is always the Panorama lands as well like Bant Panorama. It enters untapped and gives you colorless, or fetches a basic tapped if you need it to. The fact that it hits 3 different land types means it's slow but effective. Same with the shard/wedge lands like Jungle Shrine and Mystic Monastery.
    Do not forget Brainstorm into Ash Barrens

    Pithing Needle shows up in all sideboards for Port/Wasteland/Stage. Game 1, rough shape though. I think someone above mentioned that Lands becomes incredible in a fetchless metagame, which I agree with.
    Agreed Lands might become a powerful deck.
    Last edited by Jander78; 02-20-2018 at 06:17 PM. Reason: Added card tags

  13. #18393

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    Yeah how is ono-R stompy (the premier Moon deck) going to support it without duals?
    I never said it couldn't be run. I said it was a lot harder to run. Only a few decks will actually be able to run Blood Moon, mono-Red Stompy being one of them, and they're all pretty bad right now so it's not like we'd be improving the best decks.

  14. #18394
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2015
    Location

    The woods again
    Posts

    1,096

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
    Why it will be hideous?
    Focusing on Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wild is the wrong way to go. I will never include those cards in my deck.

    People always forget the slow fetchlands from Mirage:

    Flood Plain
    Bad River
    Rocky Tar Pit
    Mountain Valley
    Grasslands
    So Eldrazi gets two ways to lock out half the decks in the format on the first turn (Spyglass lets people look at your hand) [EDIT: even on the draw], Wasteland suddenly gets played everywhere, and Daze is even more effective than it used to be.

    Sounds precisely as bad as it did yesterday.

    [two years later] The Source: "BAN WASTELAND AND PITHING NEEDLE AND SPYGLASS; THEY'RE IN 45% OF DECKS."

    See where this leads?

    [EDIT: Mr. Safety, you're assuming Lands wouldn't play those very cards as well; in a world like certain people have decided they want to envision, that'd actually play to Lands's favor.

    Until Big Red and Oops decided to haymaker everything in their way.]
    All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
    PM me if you want to contribute!
    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    Just in time for Valentines Day 💝

    Roses are red, violets are blue
    Omae wa mou shindeiru
    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Quick question, are you also still waiting for the great pumpkin it did you finally pick it in once December hit?
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.

  15. #18395
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,246

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    So Eldrazi gets two ways to lock out half the decks in the format on the first turn (Spyglass lets people look at your hand) [EDIT: even on the draw], Wasteland suddenly gets played everywhere, and Daze is even more effective than it used to be.

    Sounds precisely as bad as it did yesterday.

    [two years later] The Source: "BAN WASTELAND AND PITHING NEEDLE AND SPYGLASS; THEY'RE IN 45% OF DECKS."

    See where this leads?

    [EDIT: Mr. Safety, you're assuming Lands wouldn't play those very cards as well; in a world like certain people have decided they want to envision, that'd actually play to Lands's favor.

    Until Big Red and Oops decided to haymaker everything in their way.]
    Not assuming that at all...it was just a theoretical observation. Of course lands would adapt.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  16. #18396
    Global Moderator
    mistercakes's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2009
    Location

    Copenhagen
    Posts

    2,274

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    in this ridiculous scenario, i think it's probably overlooked that price of progress would be a staple of non-burn decks looking for some more reach. also, burn would be likely a tier 1 deck if people still chose to play these 3-4 color decks with no fetches.
    -rob

  17. #18397
    Member
    Matsu's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2016
    Location

    Forever dark woods
    Posts

    203

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    So Eldrazi gets two ways to lock out half the decks in the format on the first turn (Spyglass lets people look at your hand) [EDIT: even on the draw], Wasteland suddenly gets played everywhere, and Daze is even more effective than it used to be.

    Sounds precisely as bad as it did yesterday.

    [two years later] The Source: "BAN WASTELAND AND PITHING NEEDLE AND SPYGLASS; THEY'RE IN 45% OF DECKS."

    See where this leads?

    [EDIT: Mr. Safety, you're assuming Lands wouldn't play those very cards as well; in a world like certain people have decided they want to envision, that'd actually play to Lands's favor.

    Until Big Red and Oops decided to haymaker everything in their way.]
    I do not know your meta, but Wasteland is played everywhere at the moment. And no one is screaming ban Wasteland. According to MtgTop8 Wasteland is present in 43% of the decks, which is very close to the number you used.

    Brainstorm 55%
    Ponder 52%
    FoW 49%
    Delta 48%
    Wasteland 43%
    Volc 39.5%
    DRS 37.5%
    U-Sea 37.5%
    Trop 34.5%
    Rainforest 34.2%
    Tarn 32.3%
    ...
    Daze 21%

    Spyglass is a great card, but I did not see and abundance of it.
    If I play Eldrazi, today, I can go Ancient Tomb -> spyglass (see 2x Delta) -> name delta-> game over.
    But I see a decline in Eldrazi recently. Maybe in Robots it might be a thing.
    Even Chalice of the void, which is the best tax against Xerox Decks is played in 13.6% of decks.

    So I do not understand your point. According to MtgTop8 Eldrazi has 6% of the metagame and Robots was played once or twice in the last two month. This is based on public data shared by WotC and other organisers.

  18. #18398
    Greatness awaits!
    Lemnear's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Location

    Berlin, Germany
    Posts

    6,998

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    in this ridiculous scenario, i think it's probably overlooked that price of progress would be a staple of non-burn decks looking for some more reach. also, burn would be likely a tier 1 deck if people still chose to play these 3-4 color decks with no fetches.
    I guess PoP would just go in line with Bloodmoon, Magus, Ghost Quarter, Back to Basics & Co for punishing greedy manabases with a dozen duals. I don't think that pushing some punishing mechanics is a bad thing per sé. I am more concerned with the fact that greedy 4c decks seem to get away so easily in our current meta despite all the tools in the pool, thanks to DRS and the usual manafixing
    www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!

    Join us at Facebook!

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  19. #18399
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2015
    Location

    The woods again
    Posts

    1,096

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I am more concerned with the fact that greedy 4c decks seem to get away so easily in our current meta despite all the tools in the pool, thanks to DRS and the usual manafixing
    I share your concern about this. It's a similar problem to the one we had a year ago, only this one looks worse (though it certainly plays better) because the decks are both kitchen-sink and max-value at the same time. I think there's a deeper problem that's really difficult to remedy, though. Sure, the lands and creatures (well, three of the creatures) are driving 4c decks, but the only one that really helps their color situation is Deathrite, for which I still don't think we need a ban. I'm leaving aside fetchlands for the purpose of this post, though I'm happy to discuss them further.

    The major issue is that none of these decks would function without pushed creatures printed over the past six years. I've said it before and I'll say it again: when Wizards decided(!) that noncreature spells were too strong and that creatures weren't strong enough, they could've done three things:
    —Print better creatures
    —Stop printing such powerful spells
    —Print better creatures and worse spells

    They went with the third option, and it really, really shows. None of these creatures—Deathrite Shaman, Leovold, Delver, Emrakul, G-Brand, True-Name Nemesis (LOL)—would be nearly as good if comparable tools for stopping them were still hitting shelves. That would be bad for Legacy for obvious reasons, but there's also option 2: just stop printing things like Brainstorm that get everybody panty-twisted around here because they let you draw cards, but also don't print a 2-mana 6/7; that would be stupid. (Tempora mutantur sed nihil mutant.) There was never any excuse for throttling forward creatures the way they did, and all the problems people have with a lack of format diversity and deckbuilding innovation go straight back to that. It's all value, all the time if you want to win. As an aside, that's what happens when you complain about control decks. I'm guilty, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
    I do not know your meta, but Wasteland is played everywhere at the moment. And no one is screaming ban Wasteland. According to MtgTop8 Wasteland is present in 43% of the decks, which is very close to the number you used. . . . Spyglass is a great card, but I did not see and abundance of it. If I play Eldrazi, today, I can go Ancient Tomb -> spyglass (see 2x Delta) -> name delta-> game over. . . . So I do not understand your point.
    First of all, we're talking about where the meta would go, not where the meta is right now, so if you won't work with that, there's nothing to discuss.

    Wasteland gets significantly stronger when you have to wait a turn to use your Mirage-block fetchlands. The fact that they take a turn to use makes Spyglass significantly better because not only can you—on the draw!—play Spyglass, look at the opponent's hand, and name the Mirage fetch that hurts the opponent the most based on their T1 land drop and the contents of their hand, you can do that on the first turn. So yes, Eldrazi gets a HUGE boost against anything that's not monocolored. Or you can Wasteland the opponent before they can activate their fetch. And if the opponent sticks with Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse, it doesn't help them much because they can only find basics, and they throw all their T1 plays as a matter of course. I'm fine with more people's playing basics, but I'm absolutely not fine with losing any number of decks that couldn't exist in any other format because the fixing sucks.
    All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
    PM me if you want to contribute!
    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    Just in time for Valentines Day 💝

    Roses are red, violets are blue
    Omae wa mou shindeiru
    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Quick question, are you also still waiting for the great pumpkin it did you finally pick it in once December hit?
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.

  20. #18400
    Member
    Matsu's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2016
    Location

    Forever dark woods
    Posts

    203

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    I share...
    Agree with everything you said^+1

    I believe it is possible to turn Legacy into a no fetch format, unless WotC starts to hit those "iconic"creatures with the BanHammer.
    Which might upset more people then we think.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1860 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1860 guests)