View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 975 of 1178 FirstFirst ... 47587592596597197297397497597697797897998510251075 ... LastLast
Results 19,481 to 19,500 of 23542

Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #19481

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    I think we can all agree that, to help non-blue get countermagic, they must unban SDT and ban Counterbalance. One must never forget the power of the MonkeyBlast (sometimes also called Force of Ape) which Painter decks would levy. There's no need to make some new FoW variant as it already exists @Bithlord.

    Any time people are unhappy about the state of legacy, deep down it's probably because they don't have enough Painter in their meta.
    I may be missing some obvious sarcasm, or something, but I'm not sure how unbanning another blue counterspell engine solves the "all counterspells are locked into blue" stupidness.

  2. #19482

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bithlord View Post
    I may be missing some obvious sarcasm, or something, but I'm not sure how unbanning another blue counterspell engine solves the "all counterspells are locked into blue" stupidness.
    Because he wants to reinstate a red counterspell engine and ban the blue one, least thats how I read it (ban Counterbalance, unban Top).
    Lands, MUD, Stax, and Miracles.

  3. #19483

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Ban terminus, unban top. Then, Abrupt Decay; the card printed to deal with CounterTop lock, would be relevant again, control decks wouldn't have to be the grindfests they are currently, and tempo decks like Grixis Delver would have a true nemesis again in the form of an actual heavy control archetype. Furthermore, decks like nicfit and painter, alongside several others, would get their Brainstorm back and partially close the gap in power-levels between blue and the rest of the color pie.

  4. #19484
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,477

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    Ban terminus, unban top. Then, Abrupt Decay; the card printed to deal with CounterTop lock, would be relevant again, control decks wouldn't have to be the grindfests they are currently, and tempo decks like Grixis Delver would have a true nemesis again in the form of an actual heavy control archetype. Furthermore, decks like nicfit and painter, alongside several others, would get their Brainstorm back and partially close the gap in power-levels between blue and the rest of the color pie.
    So this is something I've talked about in this thread before, but just because a spell can kill Counterbalance doesn't make it ok (and in the case of Decay, we also know DRS use increases). In the last few pages we've talked about ideas of Unmask at instant speed, and something the legacy community needs to acknowledge is that Counterbalance is on-board instant speed Hymn that never goes away and it protects itself - it just keeps hitting over and over and over until their opponent finds an uninteractive card. All countermagic is effectively instant speed discard, but Counterbalance is particularly egregious.

    Specifically the opponent cannot really play magic until they find Vial, Cavern, Counterbalance, Decay, Boseju, or Chalice...even the decks without these run cards like K-Grip and Exquisite Firecraft. So Counterbalance is format-warping and it stifles creativity due solely to its poor design of infinite value; the kicker though is that the card that enables it is a free combo piece 'cause you can't really kill it [SDT], it creates virtual card quality, and replaces itself - now SDT is quite poorly designed, but by itself it's pretty harmless. When SDT and CB are together, you're insane to think "I'm gonna outdraw miracles and find my Decay..." and that Terminus is the only reason they're beating you. The reason fair decks lose to Terminus is that they don't Surgical targeting Swords to Plowshares, instead they do stuff like keep in Mother of Runes and then play their second card right into any wrath ever printed - these cards keep getting cheaper or faster [i.e. instant speed], so it's really only a matter of time before they recombine instant speed with undercosted.

    We can keep going on about how you think Terminus is the card to ban, but you can't seriously think that any creative space for non-blue counterspells will ever exist (and compete) against Counterbalance the card. There's no point to pretending we're playing a fair, stack-interactive game of magic if someone has access to win the game forever. The SDT unban is something that should happen though - wotc needs to make a coordinated effort to not effectively kill non-blue countermagic approaches in legacy. Painter was never a huge archetype but it was non-blue counterspells; it's not a good look to ban that, even if unintentional.

  5. #19485
    *
    DarthVicious's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2010
    Location

    Central NY
    Posts

    358

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    Ban terminus, unban top. Then, Abrupt Decay; the card printed to deal with CounterTop lock, would be relevant again, control decks wouldn't have to be the grindfests they are currently, and tempo decks like Grixis Delver would have a true nemesis again in the form of an actual heavy control archetype. Furthermore, decks like nicfit and painter, alongside several others, would get their Brainstorm back and partially close the gap in power-levels between blue and the rest of the color pie.
    Not to mention the other card printed to punish Top, Deathrite, and ever-present fetchlands: Harsh Mentor.

    They just banned Top before Mentor got the chance to prove himself.

  6. #19486

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Not to mention the other card printed to punish Top, Deathrite, and ever-present fetchlands: Harsh Mentor.

    They just banned Top before Mentor got the chance to prove himself.
    Fully agree. I had pre-ordered my JP set for RW Taxes and they hadn't even arrived when the ban happened. It would have given that deck the edge it needed to be the best imo. Slaughtering Miracles AND Elves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    So this is something I've talked about in this thread before, but just because a spell can kill Counterbalance doesn't make it ok (and in the case of Decay, we also know DRS use increases). In the last few pages we've talked about ideas of Unmask at instant speed, and something the legacy community needs to acknowledge is that Counterbalance is on-board instant speed Hymn that never goes away and it protects itself - it just keeps hitting over and over and over until their opponent finds an uninteractive card. All countermagic is effectively instant speed discard, but Counterbalance is particularly egregious.

    Specifically the opponent cannot really play magic until they find Vial, Cavern, Counterbalance, Decay, Boseju, or Chalice...even the decks without these run cards like K-Grip and Exquisite Firecraft. So Counterbalance is format-warping and it stifles creativity due solely to its poor design of infinite value; the kicker though is that the card that enables it is a free combo piece 'cause you can't really kill it [SDT], it creates virtual card quality, and replaces itself - now SDT is quite poorly designed, but by itself it's pretty harmless. When SDT and CB are together, you're insane to think "I'm gonna outdraw miracles and find my Decay..." and that Terminus is the only reason they're beating you. The reason fair decks lose to Terminus is that they don't Surgical targeting Swords to Plowshares, instead they do stuff like keep in Mother of Runes and then play their second card right into any wrath ever printed - these cards keep getting cheaper or faster [i.e. instant speed], so it's really only a matter of time before they recombine instant speed with undercosted.

    We can keep going on about how you think Terminus is the card to ban, but you can't seriously think that any creative space for non-blue counterspells will ever exist (and compete) against Counterbalance the card. There's no point to pretending we're playing a fair, stack-interactive game of magic if someone has access to win the game forever. The SDT unban is something that should happen though - wotc needs to make a coordinated effort to not effectively kill non-blue countermagic approaches in legacy. Painter was never a huge archetype but it was non-blue counterspells; it's not a good look to ban that, even if unintentional.
    Whatever, CounterTop combo has been fine for over a decade, and only after the printing of an instant-speed 1 mana board wipe was it oppressive. Abrupt Decay is a fine answer as are red blasts, krosan grips, Thoughtseize and your own countermagic. Furthermore, instant-speed targeted discard? But CounterTop is broken. Okay.

    Instant-speed discard is something I've thought about for a very long time, back before I could afford Force of Will as a teen. It's a terrible idea. It, too, would become oppressive.

  7. #19487
    Site Contributor
    Whitefaces's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2013
    Location

    London
    Posts

    1,378

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Not to say that there aren't other sweepers, but imagining the current state of Legacy with Terminus banned seems even more miserable. It's the only thing really keeping these DRS/Leo/TNN etc decks in check.

    The UWx decks would turn into CounterTop Mentor too, both of these approaches seem a lot less appealing to what we have at the moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  8. #19488

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    Fully agree. I had pre-ordered my JP set for RW Taxes and they hadn't even arrived when the ban happened. It would have given that deck the edge it needed to be the best imo. Slaughtering Miracles AND Elves.Whatever, CounterTop combo has been fine for over a decade, and only after the printing of an instant-speed 1 mana board wipe was it oppressive. Abrupt Decay is a fine answer as are red blasts, krosan grips, Thoughtseize and your own countermagic. Furthermore, instant-speed targeted discard? But CounterTop is broken. Okay.

    Instant-speed discard is something I've thought about for a very long time, back before I could afford Force of Will as a teen. It's a terrible idea. It, too, would become oppressive.
    The banning of Top was, as I'm sure you're aware, due to the issue of time. Regardless of the card's contemporaries when it was legal in competitive Magic, it created too many headaches for judges and forced tournaments to go two to three hours beyond their anticipated end time. There are people who are skilled using the card, and I can see why those people would want it kept, but that's just not the reality of the situation.

    There's just too many people that take too long continually when activating the card.

  9. #19489

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Not to say that there aren't other sweepers, but imagining the current state of Legacy with Terminus banned seems even more miserable. It's the only thing really keeping these DRS/Leo/TNN etc decks in check.

    The UWx decks would turn into CounterTop Mentor too, both of these approaches seem a lot less appealing to what we have at the moment.
    You mean the decks playing a measly 14 creatures, 4 of which are 1/1's and another of which are 1/2's, and then another 3 of which are 2/1's? Yes, those guys need kept in check in ways that generic targeted removal and traditional 4cmc-ish mass removal spells just can't handle.

    Leovold is pretty good, but dies to everything and often is an over-costed Baleful Strix; Often draws you a card and dies. Mentor in Miracles generally gets more value than Leovold in any BGx mid-range list that isn't Aluren or Food Chain Griffins.

    Also, it's pretty hard to take that argument seriously from someone who often plays miracles. It seems you may be biased?

    I own miracles. I do not play it.


    Edit: @Michael Keller: Sure, I remember that is what the release said. I don't always take wizards at their word, especially when I looked at the meta saturation of Miracles at the time of the banning (super high saturation). But I digress, I will say I agree that it may take too long to resolve an activation of SDT. However, a functional reprint fixing it's short-comings should be in the pipeline. It did help in closing the power gap between blue and the rest of the color pie.

  10. #19490
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,246

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    Furthermore, instant-speed targeted discard? But CounterTop is broken. Okay.

    Instant-speed discard is something I've thought about for a very long time, back before I could afford Force of Will as a teen. It's a terrible idea. It, too, would become oppressive.
    I don't mean to pick a fight, but how in world is an instant speed discard worse than Force of Will? What does one do that the other doesn't? Lets say Thoughtseize was an instant. How is this more oppressive? The only thing I could think is that it would be played *with* force of will and give it a critical mass of 'fuck you' to combo. Is this what you mean by oppressive?

    EDIT: We have instant speed targeted discard already, albeit in challenging colors: Mardu Charm.Vendilion Clique also if you want to compare effect and not actual ruling, which sees plenty of non-oppressive play.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  11. #19491

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I don't mean to pick a fight, but how in world is an instant speed discard worse than Force of Will? What does one do that the other doesn't? Lets say Thoughtseize was an instant. How is this more oppressive? The only thing I could think is that it would be played *with* force of will and give it a critical mass of 'fuck you' to combo. Is this what you mean by oppressive?

    EDIT: We have instant speed targeted discard already, albeit in challenging colors: Mardu Charm.Vendilion Clique also if you want to compare effect and not actual ruling, which sees plenty of non-oppressive play.
    I'm happy to discuss, I don't feel like you are picking a fight, and that is exactly what I mean. Anytime you want to print something like instant speed targeted discard that is playable in Legacy (Mardu charm is not and Clique isn't actually discard, nor does it create actual card disadvantage for your opponent), you must first assume blue will add it to their repertoire. Furthermore, it's a big fuck you too almost all decks that aren't pure control, not just combo. I wouldn't mind them printing something like what we are discussing, I just believe it will be very difficult to assimilate this concept into a real card that doesn't become part of the problem. I'd love to be wrong, I like discard. I think hymn is one of the most fun and tilting spells you can cast off non-blue Mana.

  12. #19492
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,246

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    I'm happy to discuss, I don't feel like you are picking a fight, and that is exactly what I mean. Anytime you want to print something like instant speed targeted discard that is playable in Legacy (Mardu charm is not and Clique isn't actually discard, nor does it create actual card disadvantage for your opponent), you must first assume blue will add it to their repertoire. Furthermore, it's a big fuck you too almost all decks that aren't pure control, not just combo. I wouldn't mind them printing something like what we are discussing, I just believe it will be very difficult to assimilate this concept into a real card that doesn't become part of the problem. I'd love to be wrong, I like discard. I think hymn is one of the most fun and tilting spells you can cast off non-blue Mana.
    Fair enough, that's what I figured. I think in order to be both playable and non-oppressive it would have to balance a drawback, like 'if you control a basic swamp you may cast this as an instant.' That might come close, but how hard is it to include a basic swamp? If it cost 3 life rather than 2 maybe, or if you have to exile a black card to play it as an instant. Still probably too good, lol. What a quandary...

    Pay 2 life, exile a black card, and control a basic swamp. Yay Pox!

    EDIT: For non-blue mana tilters, I'd have to go with Cabal Therapy as my favorite.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  13. #19493

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Not to mention the other card printed to punish Top, Deathrite, and ever-present fetchlands: Harsh Mentor.

    They just banned Top before Mentor got the chance to prove himself.
    Not to mention reprinting cards they are intent on banning. Maybe they should do a masters illegal set; here’s all the shit you can’t play or won’t be able to soon.

  14. #19494
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,477

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MechTactical View Post
    here’s all the shit you can’t play or won’t be able to soon.
    Sounds like MM2 where they ban the value cards right after they release it.

  15. #19495

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    The banning of Top was, as I'm sure you're aware, due to the issue of time.
    Top is not currently legal, plenty of rounds still go to time
    All it takes is one match going long. There might be some legitimate arguments for banning top, but I just don't buy this one.

  16. #19496
    *
    DarthVicious's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2010
    Location

    Central NY
    Posts

    358

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MechTactical View Post
    Not to mention reprinting cards they are intent on banning. Maybe they should do a masters illegal set; here’s all the shit you can’t play or won’t be able to soon.
    From the Vault: Mistakes

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    Top is not currently legal, plenty of rounds still go to time
    All it takes is one match going long. There might be some legitimate arguments for banning top, but I just don't buy this one.
    Because everyone loves watching their opponent stare at the same three cards for 10-20 seconds multiple times within each and every turn. It's like when an NFL team gets ahead by more than 3 points, they run the ball constantly just to eat up the remainder of the clock. Win game one in 10 min, draw game two out for 30 more.

    "Oops that's time. Guess I win, 1-0-1."

  17. #19497
    Site Contributor
    Whitefaces's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2013
    Location

    London
    Posts

    1,378

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    You mean the decks playing a measly 14 creatures, 4 of which are 1/1's and another of which are 1/2's, and then another 3 of which are 2/1's? Yes, those guys need kept in check in ways that generic targeted removal and traditional 4cmc-ish mass removal spells just can't handle.

    Leovold is pretty good, but dies to everything and often is an over-costed Baleful Strix; Often draws you a card and dies. Mentor in Miracles generally gets more value than Leovold in any BGx mid-range list that isn't Aluren or Food Chain Griffins.

    Also, it's pretty hard to take that argument seriously from someone who often plays miracles. It seems you may be biased?

    I own miracles. I do not play it.
    Now I'm confused. Is DRS a format oppressing monster or 'just a 1/2'? Creatures are so pushed these days and the format is so fast and efficient. If it was as simple as point and click removal then Delver wouldn't be dominating the way it is atm.

    You'll have to take my word for it, it's honestly not biased. Pre-ban I played mostly Shardless and Delver and only picked it up properly after, and play a bunch of other decks at locals and online.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  18. #19498

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Because everyone loves watching their opponent stare at the same three cards for 10-20 seconds multiple times within each and every turn. It's like when an NFL team gets ahead by more than 3 points, they run the ball constantly just to eat up the remainder of the clock. Win game one in 10 min, draw game two out for 30 more.

    "Oops that's time. Guess I win, 1-0-1."
    I get that this is hyperbole to make a point and it's coming from a position of personal taste in the texture of Magic games, but there are rules in Magic for Slow Play and Stalling, and you can always call a judge if you think your opponent is doing either.

    If your opponent is playing at a reasonable pace and taking legitimate game actions (and spinning top is one of them), and you can't kill them in game two in forty minutes, that's on you. That strategy is also risky for the Miracles player, because if you do happen to turn the corner sometime in game two, they have to hustle or they're going to get a draw.

    You might not like it when people play cantrips or spin top, but I think it's a thousand times more miserable when somebody just goes, "ancient tomb, chalice on one" and then kills you with whatever goofy-ass spaghetti digimon costs 2C with zero relevant play decisions. Fortunately, each of our personal tastes don't dictate the ban list (though, unfortunately, someone's did with respect to SDT), and people still get to play what they personally like, and occasionally have to play against something they don't.

  19. #19499

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Now I'm confused. Is DRS a format oppressing monster or 'just a 1/2'?
    No, this is called being intentionally dense, my friend; and I guess Treasure Cruise is just an 8 Mana sorcery?

    When discussing removal, a creature with several good abilities is easily summed up as 'just a 1/2' because of the context in which he is being considered unless one of those abilities lends itself to that discussion. Is there a reason to consider him more than 'just a 1/2' within the scope of the discussion?

    Come on, we can have strong opinions and intelligent conversation without having to stoop to fallacious reasoning and illogical scenario framing.

    Creatures are so pushed these days and the format is so fast and efficient. If it was as simple as point and click removal then Delver wouldn't be dominating the way it is atm.
    Grixis Delver is dominating because of DRS. Czech Pile is only possible thanks to DRS. There's a key difference in the two decks, and that is their ability to protect their threat. The efficient countermagic that delver plays is the reason that the format-warping elf wins more games for that deck.

    You'll have to take my word for it, it's honestly not biased. Pre-ban I played mostly Shardless and Delver and only picked it up properly after, and play a bunch of other decks at locals and online.
    I will this time, but if you think a 1cmc, (conditionally) instant-speed board wipe is healthy for this (or any) meta, you will have a hard time getting me to take you seriously at all, ever. Miracles would be just fine with ratchet bomb or EE, I even think you would be fine with just Verdicts and Entreat.

    If a board wipe costs less than 4, it should obviously have a draw-back: Bontu's Reckoning, Toxic Deluge. Yours costs 1, and I can't convince myself it has a drawback at all.

    Good morning,

    -ABC

  20. #19500

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    Top is not currently legal, plenty of rounds still go to time
    All it takes is one match going long. There might be some legitimate arguments for banning top, but I just don't buy this one.
    Exactly, and if that is true why didn’t they already print a functional replacement? Something like: activate look only once per turn and/or only during your opponents eot or some shit?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 590 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 590 guests)