View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #22561

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I got a very good laugh at this!

    Are you trying to imply that Homelands wasn't the best expansion ever? Shame on you.
    I would never deprive Fallen Empires of it's rightful title.
    But I meant on a wordplay level. Pioneers leave their homeland.

  2. #22562
    Hymn-Slinging Mod
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Sorry, but Fallen Empires is a vastly better set than Homelands in every way I can possibly think about it. To this day, I don't think any Magic set's flavor has even been as good, or will be either. Maybe that is just nostalgia on my part, but FE is definitely not the worst Magic set ever made, to me.

    I'd actually love to see Fallen Empires Horizons. Even if all the cards are terrible and they only manage to capture 25% of the old flavor.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  3. #22563
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Sorry, but Fallen Empires is a vastly better set than Homelands in every way I can possibly think about it. To this day, I don't think any Magic set's flavor has even been as good, or will be either. Maybe that is just nostalgia on my part, but FE is definitely not the worst Magic set ever made, to me.

    I'd actually love to see Fallen Empires Horizons. Even if all the cards are terrible and they only manage to capture 25% of the old flavor.
    Said the guy with the HTT art under his name. Multiple arts for same card should come back though.

    I still think one of the better unloved sets they’ve made was Prophecy; there was nothing quite like telling players to be tapped out while also having mana open to deny rhystic magic effects. This is a set they should probably have a Return to X for - they clearly need to practice not making mindlessly perfect cards. Also bring back mana burn so we can actually go back to Prophecy; what an incredibly simple rule to understand, trashed for no benefit other than lost creative space.

    edit: math checks out by the way, if you print cards with 4 arts you get a lot of flavor equity at a rate of 25% per.

  4. #22564
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Said the guy with the HTT art under his name. Multiple arts for same card should come back though.

    I still think one of the better unloved sets they’ve made was Prophecy; there was nothing quite like telling players to be tapped out while also having mana open to deny rhystic magic effects. This is a set they should probably have a Return to X for - they clearly need to practice not making mindlessly perfect cards. Also bring back mana burn so we can actually go back to Prophecy; what an incredibly simple rule to understand, trashed for no benefit other than lost creative space.

    edit: math checks out by the way, if you print cards with 4 arts you get a lot of flavor equity at a rate of 25% per.
    Well, it is never my aim to hide my biases. Rather, I try to put them right out in front.

    However, it is unclear to me under what auspices one could make the case of Homelands as better than Fallen Empires though. Even if we subscribe to your usual Hwyn hatred and give FE a demerit on a count of that, we still have neat cards like the original pump knights, Merchant Scroll, een stupid cards like Breeding Pool or Ebon Praetor are neat. Aside the clear face cards of Homelands, like Baron Sengir, Autumn Willow and Ishan's Shade, the rest of the cards are utterly uninteresting for the most part, at least to me and my biases.

    Most contemporary sets are actually too homogenized and bland to even be that bad. Even if Monday comes and Companion gets nuked from orbit, Ikora still isn't even close to one of the worst sets. It also is nowhere near the top, of course.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  5. #22565
    GrimGrin and Glissa are in a boat...

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Sorry, but Fallen Empires is a vastly better set than Homelands in every way I can possibly think about it. To this day, I don't think any Magic set's flavor has even been as good, or will be either. Maybe that is just nostalgia on my part, but FE is definitely not the worst Magic set ever made, to me.

    I'd actually love to see Fallen Empires Horizons. Even if all the cards are terrible and they only manage to capture 25% of the old flavor.
    I agree with that. Fallen empires at least had some synergy between cards. I loved fungus!!

  6. #22566
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    As out of place as Homelands was, it was at least part of Ice Age block constructed for a long time. There’s just nothing better than a format where Zuran Orb and Thawing Glaciers is banned but Rit Necro is totally fine. Even has all the cantrips (BS/Portent), countermagic (Cspell/FoW), removal (Plow/Serrated Arrows), and pump knights. That’s just a good format, and FE missed out (no BW 16 pump knight, HTT, Plow aggro; that would have been too good).

  7. #22567

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The Dark is the best set, especially if you hate kids on your lawn.

  8. #22568

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    As long as we’re on this topic, I also like FE and found this custom set entertaining to browse:
    http://www.planesculptors.net/set/fe-redux#cards

  9. #22569
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    There was a time when Delver decks didn't have any real card advantage.
    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3019422#paper
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  10. #22570

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    There was a time when Delver decks didn't have any real card advantage.
    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3019422#paper
    Any format where I have to deal with K-Command main is a format I don't want to play probably

  11. #22571

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    There was a time when Delver decks didn't have any real card advantage.
    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3019422#paper
    It's all under control, only 59.38% of the decks have Lurrus.

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tourname...2152312#online

    Oh, yeah, that other thing, 75% Brainstorm and FoW, 68.75% Ponder. 'Diversity'... (or 'Ubiquity'?)

    Edit: The vintage league (with 'massaged' published results) had 80% of Lurrus...

  12. #22572
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    There was a time when Delver decks didn't have any real card advantage.
    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3019422#paper
    Indeed, and that was a time when Snapcaster/Hymn was out of control, and before that CB/SDT & Grixis Delver’s Probe/Sea/Therapy was out of control, and before that Goyf was out of control until the printing of Snapcaster.

    Pick your golden era of bullcrap that shouldn’t have been legal. Lurrus is dumb, but this is what happens when you ban DRS and refuse to fill in the gaping hole - suddenly a Dreadhorde comes along and you have to kill that, and then you can’t interact with Lurrus and it takes over and they get Dreadhorde back.

    So yeah y’know, we can patch legacy by hitting Lurrus...but all that means is 4c Oko/Uro/Coatl jammy jams shows up everywhere. It’s a another example of bullcrap that shouldn’t be legal, but hey at least Oko and Veil mean people can’t really profitably ruin the format again with Hymn/Snapcaster or CB, so like there’s that. Lurrus is just riding the coattails of banning SDT instead of CB and banning DRS instead of Hymn, which is what most new problem cards in legacy do. Occasionally though you get pure 1-card combo bullcrap that just needs to be banned like Oko and Wrenn.

  13. #22573

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    It's kind of funny that the "Most Played Cards" section below those decks for whatever reason doesn't take into account companions
    Companion cards are in the sideboard, which often aren't counted towards "most played cards" stats on websites.

  14. #22574

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Let's all thank the brainstorm defenders for all the prepackaged arguments as for why actually being in every deck isn't bannable

  15. #22575
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Indeed, and that was a time when Snapcaster/Hymn was out of control, and before that CB/SDT & Grixis Delver’s Probe/Sea/Therapy was out of control, and before that Goyf was out of control until the printing of Snapcaster.

    Pick your golden era of bullcrap that shouldn’t have been legal. Lurrus is dumb, but this is what happens when you ban DRS and refuse to fill in the gaping hole - suddenly a Dreadhorde comes along and you have to kill that, and then you can’t interact with Lurrus and it takes over and they get Dreadhorde back.

    So yeah y’know, we can patch legacy by hitting Lurrus...but all that means is 4c Oko/Uro/Coatl jammy jams shows up everywhere. It’s a another example of bullcrap that shouldn’t be legal, but hey at least Oko and Veil mean people can’t really profitably ruin the format again with Hymn/Snapcaster or CB, so like there’s that. Lurrus is just riding the coattails of banning SDT instead of CB and banning DRS instead of Hymn, which is what most new problem cards in legacy do. Occasionally though you get pure 1-card combo bullcrap that just needs to be banned like Oko and Wrenn.
    You make it sound like DRS being in the format would make it better. What would actually happen is everybody playing 4C or even 5C clusterfuck Lurrus decks where Lurrus could be played out on T2 more often since DRS can't even stop the Bauble engine, with Seal of Fire being likely tech to fight opposing DRS.

    As for filling the gap of DRS - at what point would a new card be balanced? Only being able to target your opponent's stuff? Or take the mana ability away as well/replacing it with something else/restrict it to only producing G or B/G? Not being able abuse your own GY for maximum effect would be crucial for a balanced design. It was initially designed to fight Snapcaster in Standard, so it could still fulfill its purpose if can only target your opponent's stuff, while also resolving those utterly stupid DRS wars.

  16. #22576

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Let's all thank the brainstorm defenders for all the prepackaged arguments as for why actually being in every deck isn't bannable
    OMG! you and i agree on something. Monday's B&R will be a relief to get back to bashing on BS.

    just imagine a format where SDT, DTT, DRS, Underworld Breach, Wrenn & Six, Treasure Cruise, Mana Drain & Mind Twist are not banned but BS is.

  17. #22577
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    You make it sound like DRS being in the format would make it better. What would actually happen is everybody playing 4C or even 5C clusterfuck Lurrus decks where Lurrus could be played out on T2 more often since DRS can't even stop the Bauble engine, with Seal of Fire being likely tech to fight opposing DRS.

    As for filling the gap of DRS - at what point would a new card be balanced? Only being able to target your opponent's stuff? Or take the mana ability away as well/replacing it with something else/restrict it to only producing G or B/G? Not being able abuse your own GY for maximum effect would be crucial for a balanced design. It was initially designed to fight Snapcaster in Standard, so it could still fulfill its purpose if can only target your opponent's stuff, while also resolving those utterly stupid DRS wars.
    A Lurrus on turn 2 is not a good play, it’s actually a great way to instantly lose - the opponent definitely has a higher chance of removal in hand at this time in a game. Pyknite is not good enough in legacy, and that’s exactly what a mistimed Lurrus is.

    Look at any new card that is ‘too good/overpowered/must-ban’ and ask yourself if B or G mode on DRS kept this crap out of the format - every analysis of a new card should start here. The main problem with DRS is the following turn 2 game over b/c 1-card combo 3-drop PW/3 mana play or 100% chance of Hymn [into lose your hand forever Snap-Hymn vomit chain] due to the mana mode. There’s no reason a fixed version couldn’t say “get a mana of a color and type the targeted land could produce” and beyond that, the card as printed was already 100% fine b/c it’s actually really just a Fetchland problem.

    It really shouldn’t be surprising that losing B/G police mode and the only [not-Hogaak/Zombardment] black 1-drop threat has created more problems than it solved. At some point, be it Wrenn or Breach or Uro or Sanctuary or Sevinne’s or people playing AK or Dreadhorde or Lurrus, you really have to ask yourself “is the format really better off?” even with the Fetchland/mana-ramp problems that came with him.

    I’m genuinely curious, what is everyone’s threshold on bullcrap DRS would have put a stop too before you give up one inch on DRS? How many decks, how many cards/exploits, how many must-bans would you have to see?

  18. #22578

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Yeah it's going to be a bit of a relief going back to the moronic "unban SDT/DRS" and "ban Brainstorm" arguments after Lurrus (and hopefully Companion in general) gets canned.

  19. #22579
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour_Asses View Post
    Yeah it's going to be a bit of a relief going back to the moronic "unban SDT/DRS" and "ban Brainstorm" arguments after Lurrus (and hopefully Companion in general) gets canned.
    Would Lurrus be fine if you can't run it as companion? Not being able to build your deck around it and not getting it on demand would reduce its power level quite a bit.

  20. #22580
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Would Lurrus be fine if you can't run it as companion? Not being able to build your deck around it and not getting it on demand would reduce its power level quite a bit.
    Honestly they should ban it, then reprint it in the next set with “can only Yawg Will a thing back if you gained life this turn” - they just really need to get back to responsible card design. I mean, it has lifelink right effing there, how hard is it to put 1 and 1 together. I mean it’s not like they just had to ban a card recently that had largely unconditional recursion - oh wait, nope they just banned Breach.

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