View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #22681
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    I was about to say that Pauper exists, Brainstorm is legal and playable in tier 1 decks but you have to build around it to justify its inclusion.
    I forgot Pauper was a format, and I like your post. Yes it's a 'sub-optimal' set of fetchlands that works with Brainstorm, but it's still fetchlands, and in a format that is arguably the most balanced.
    Brainstorm Realist

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    I think there is a general misunderstanding of the 'debate' that dominates this thread. The discussion is mostly between a group of realists that see that brainstorm is untouchable and idealists that want brainstorm gone. There isnt any meaningful discussion because both sides aren't even approaching the issue in the same context.
    I will be putting 'Brainstorm Realist' into my signature!
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Being an idealist isn't bad though. Especially in a world where legacy is pretty much dead at this point. I know many people are just over with what the format has become and moved on. And that's fine. I'm at that point as well. The format has devolved into a hyper inbred mess and it's why I've quit the format.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
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    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  4. #22684

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Being an idealist isn't bad though. Especially in a world where legacy is pretty much dead at this point. I know many people are just over with what the format has become and moved on. And that's fine. I'm at that point as well. The format has devolved into a hyper inbred mess and it's why I've quit the format.
    Tired: Quitting Legacy
    Wired: Quitting Magic entirely

    IMO, Legacy remains the best Magic format, but WotC has now succeeded in ruining the game as a whole

  5. #22685
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Being an idealist isn't bad though. Especially in a world where legacy is pretty much dead at this point. I know many people are just over with what the format has become and moved on. And that's fine. I'm at that point as well. The format has devolved into a hyper inbred mess and it's why I've quit the format.
    I never said it was. Like I said, with regards to most things, I am far more an Idealist than a Realist.

    However, I see value in a pragmatic take as well. The thing is, whole MTGO Legacy might devolve fairly quickly, our playground doesn't because people only own so many cards. Plus, most just play what they like, rather than whatever the most busted thing possible.

    That being said, play what you like. If you don't like it, don't play it. The future of Legacy is only, likely, more constrictive, rather than expansive. Modern is well the same track. Even Pioneer will get there as well. That is the nature of non-rotating formats, I think. I don't think it is ideal and it isn't for everyone, but I still enjoy it.
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  6. #22686
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by LOLWut View Post
    Tired: Quitting Legacy
    Wired: Quitting Magic entirely

    IMO, Legacy remains the best Magic format, but WotC has now succeeded in ruining the game as a whole
    This is largely a function of incorrect banning (DRS instead of Hymn, SDT instead of CB), and the continued printing of anti-strategy, cowardly cards (SFM, SCM, Strix/Coatl, cascaders). Add in overpowered PWs like W&6 and Oko and the larger ETB creep’d duders (Uro, Yorion), and you end up with piles that relentlessly jam - and that’s literally all they can do. Leave player skill at the door, you won’t be needing it - you’re just going to jam nonstop and you’ll get there or you won’t. Play or watch enough mirrors of that kind of magic and you’ll realize how toxic it is to watch legacy devolve into standard (i.e. who topdecks better: the gathering).

    The mismanaged bans aside, they need to recognize that the cowardly ETB value duder (particularly at cmc 2) stuff is what’s really eroding legacy. You play that stuff without blue and [insert-Charbelcher’y combo] makes your deck unplayable, so everything gravitates towards xerox ETB duder. This how it happens, and it’s been going on a long time because there is no way to hate it out in a competitive way (hence the cowardly part of these cards) - effective hate does not exist.

    The best way to un-ruin legacy is to print cards that unequivocally say “I’m going to make you suffer if you play ETB-style, and I’m not going to have to go too far out of my way to accomplish this.”

  7. #22687
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    This is largely a function of incorrect banning (DRS instead of Hymn, SDT instead of CB), and the continued printing of anti-strategy, cowardly cards (SFM, SCM, Strix/Coatl, cascaders). Add in overpowered PWs like W&6 and Oko and the larger ETB creep’d duders (Uro, Yorion), and you end up with piles that relentlessly jam - and that’s literally all they can do. Leave player skill at the door, you won’t be needing it - you’re just going to jam nonstop and you’ll get there or you won’t. Play or watch enough mirrors of that kind of magic and you’ll realize how toxic it is to watch legacy devolve into standard (i.e. who topdecks better: the gathering).

    The mismanaged bans aside, they need to recognize that the cowardly ETB value duder (particularly at cmc 2) stuff is what’s really eroding legacy. You play that stuff without blue and [insert-Charbelcher’y combo] makes your deck unplayable, so everything gravitates towards xerox ETB duder. This how it happens, and it’s been going on a long time because there is no way to hate it out in a competitive way (hence the cowardly part of these cards) - effective hate does not exist.

    The best way to un-ruin legacy is to print cards that unequivocally say “I’m going to make you suffer if you play ETB-style, and I’m not going to have to go too far out of my way to accomplish this.”
    This is a new take I haven't heard before. ETB have been around for a while and not sure even a card like the following is going to stop them.

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  8. #22688
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    This is a new take I haven't heard before. ETB have been around for a while and not sure even a card like the following is going to stop them.
    It’s should make a lot of sense to legacy players; I’m pretty sure everyone who plays legacy has seen a problem where Astrolabe (or any future 1 drop trinket that cantrips without going to the yard - which they *will* print) becomes a 3/3 hasted cantrip elk. Ignore everything about the fixing, that’s a side issue - ETB duders are the problem and Oko is inflaming the situation [and he will be banned, b/c he’s the problem in this case; easily the main driver of Astrolabe use].

    What’s the ban threshold? 55% is it? So uh yeah, Oko in Delver and 4c Loam and Lands and Maverick and then 4c AstroXerox. I’m seeing Oko being way closer to the 55% than Astro will ever be.

  9. #22689
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I can see why Fox brings up Snapcaster and it has been discussed here before in that light, right? In a way, Snapcaster may have a similar effect on decks that Brainstorm has, in that it changes how many virtual copies of a card you're running during a game. Brainstorm is the more powerful one since it can also make cards go away from your deck, virtually, while Snapcaster Mage is powerful because it increases the virtual copies of the spells you need for a certain matchup. It is very powerful to be able to manipulate card availability in your deck. Playing 4 StP in Maverick feels very different from running 4 StP in a cantrip-heavy list with Snapcaster in it. Feels like running 4 vs 12 copies, or something silly like that, sorry if exaggerating! (not advocating a ban, btw, just wanted to comment on it)

    Anyway, fwiw I have a more positive view on current Legacy (than above discussion). Sorry if I'm repeating myself, feel like I've said this a dozen times by now..

    Legacy seems to be just two bans away from being pretty balanced and great. Some people think 3, some think 4, pretty similar views it seems. It seems like it's a crushing majority (wanting these couple of cards banned) but what do I know.. Having so many people presenting the same view, as I register it, and seeing how WotC have been acting in agreement with these views, pretty much, for years now with an accelerating pace, it seems likely they'll keep sharing the community sentiment and so it seems likely we'll have those bans within 6 months. Possibly delayed by new sets. I don't know why they delayed banning some of those problem cards this Monday, I imagine it's because banning Oko now would look very bad in that it would be banned in every format under Vintage (counting Commander somewhere above Vintage, perhaps, on a random scale such as deck-building space or card availability space). Or maybe it's rather because they didn't have actual recent data on these decks since Lurrus drowned out almost everything else. Yeah, that makes more sense.

  10. #22690

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Can I play my Time Walk or Ancestral Recall?
    way to move the goalposts, dude.


    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    if we were to ban Brainstorm and unban all those other things, what makes you think that is a better format?
    i like how you downplay "those other things" like they are unimportant. those other things were lynchpins in decks sacrificed for BS.
    would "those other things" be banned if BS was not in the format? that's my question.

    how many people would like to play with "those other things"? SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    really, Mana Drain? Under what auspices am I to take this suggestion seriously? Mana Drain would fundamentally punish any deck that attempts to resolve a spell with a CMC over 1 when the opponent has UU open.
    i throw-in mana drain since i like the card, but it is the weakest part of my suggestions. i see you agree, too.
    how many drains are you gonna play? you can't put them back without brainstorm.
    sit there with your UU and do nothing? go ahead, i'll play mishra's factory, wasteland, abrupt decay, cavern, even flash cards, whatever...


    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I could go on, but your proposed unban list looks nearly like a gish gallop to me
    SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC & Probe are not "gish gallop". they were integral parts of decks that were sacrificed at the altar of BS.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    "is banning Brainstorm a bigger blow to Legacy than fetchlands" though, because you do realize that Legacy, as such, is literally predicated on them.
    i understand that and don't want fectchlands banned; the only problem is BS.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    You want a differential Legacy card-pool? Make that case. The burden of proof is on you, not me.
    i've been trying to make the case and ban just one card and bring back SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I already have a Legacy card pool at hand that I feel is worth playing/exploring and that is the current existent, legal card pool. And so does my local play-group.
    "legal card pool" is just a construct that you are happy with. you are figuratively on the high ground and never have alter your stance since it suits you.
    ask your play group if they would like to make decks with these cards: SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain and not BS

    we eventually talk about diversity of decks, like it is THE gold standard in the legacy play experience. if legacy is too inbred (lurrus) it's a shit show.
    what would the diversity of legacy look like without BS?

  11. #22691
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    what would the diversity of legacy look like without BS?
    Still mono-Oko. We’ve got bigger fish to fry than BS right now.

  12. #22692

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC & Probe are not "gish gallop". they were integral parts of decks that were sacrificed at the altar of BS.
    Not entirely sure how any of these were "sacrificed at the altar of brainstorm" and I don't see how brainstorm leaving the format would allow them to come back.

  13. #22693

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    i've been trying to make the case and ban just one card and bring back SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain
    That's a hell of case to make. You want Wrenn & Six back? Treasure Cruise? Probe? Mana Drain?

    You want Brainstorm gone to bring back this rogue's gallery of awful mistakes (possibly aside from Mind Twist)?

    Seems like you're completely off your nut.

  14. #22694

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    If Brainstorm were a sorcery instead of an instant it wouldn't be nearly the problem the idealist make it out to be.

    Brainstorm has hit every metric MTG has used to justify banning a card, yet it persist.

  15. #22695

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour_Asses View Post
    Seems like you're completely off your nut.
    I never thought I would say this, but he makes me miss Random_Miser and the legacy that is Invincible Counter-Troll.

  16. #22696

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Still mono-Oko. We’ve got bigger fish to fry than BS right now.
    Putting no-regrets value on threats starting at 2cc has changed decks a lot.

    As for Brainstorm (not quoting Fox, this is just often repeated):
    “If you ban Brainstorm, people will simply play the next best thing.”
    Yup, exactly. I’ve long been interested to find out what that is.

  17. #22697
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    Putting no-regrets value on threats starting at 2cc has changed decks a lot.

    As for Brainstorm (not quoting Fox, this is just often repeated):
    “If you ban Brainstorm, people will simply play the next best thing.”
    Yup, exactly. I’ve long been interested to find out what that is.
    I mean let's be real it's ponder and preordain, but those 2 as options are definitely a step down in terms of power more in line (and yet probably still better) with the rest of the format
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  18. #22698
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    how many people would like to play with "those other things"? SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain
    They can play those things: in Vintage, Modern, Pioneer, and EDH. One fundamental argument realists have stuck to is the idea of format identity. So follow the yellow brick road: ban Brainstorm in Legacy, which means its on the same power level as Ancestral Recall because both would be banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage. You make an (indirect) argument with banning Brainstorm that it is closer to the equivalent of Ancestral Recall than the equivalent of Ponder. H didn't move the goal posts at all, he just followed through.


    i've been trying to make the case and ban just one card and bring back SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain
    SDT - banned for it's interaction with Counterbalance, Terminus, and causing excessively long tournaments. Brainstorm was redundancy, but not the problem.

    Dig Through Time - banned for being too powerful in enabling blue-based combo decks and powering up Miracles. Paying 2 mana to draw the best 2 cards in your top 7, functionally, is too good for most formats that fill graveyards too fast. How does Brainstorm make this more inherently busted? It was also banned in Modern, which also has fetchlands but no Brainstorms. I would argue fetchlands were to blame.

    Deathrite Shaman - banned for not only being too powerful but also homogenizing the format too much. It was fairly used in non-blue mid-range decks but those decks didn't have blue filtering and free countermagic. This card could potentially be linked to Brainstorm based on the homogenization argument. I would, at first thought, probably lean towards banning Brainstorm as well but not unban DRS. He's not called the 1-mana PW for nothing, it's just that good of a card.

    Underworld Breach - the real culprit for breaking Breach was Lion's Eye Diamond. Yes Brainstorm helped that deck to be consistent, just like with Show and Tell and Storm. The 'free' replays from Breach broke a fundamental rule of magic, all the while being resilient to the more common ways of hating graveyards.

    W&6 - banned for synergies with Wasteland and consolidating blue decks into a single best variant with RUG delver. It reduced format diversity rather than expanding it, which is an argument that goes along with many of the banned cards.

    Gitaxian Probe - free information that adds mana with the delve mechanic. More than any other reason, it was a free and powerful effect that anybody could take advantage of. Mental Misstep was also free and countered a large share of the formats key spells.

    Those are the cards supposedly 'sacrificed on the alter of Brainstorm'. I'm not convinced, I can point to other reasons for their banning. Did Brainstorm contribute to the consistency with which people had access to those cards? For sure. Just like it contributes to the consistency of finding Show and Tell. Are you arguing that those cards are equivalent to Show and Tell?

    The other cards mentioned (Mind Twist and Mana Drain) I really can't make any meaningful statement about. I can't think of a real-world example of them existing in a 4-Brainstorm format.

    Or you can ignore everything I just wrote. The 'tl:dr':

    Quote Originally Posted by Sella View Post
    Not entirely sure how any of these were "sacrificed at the altar of brainstorm" and I don't see how brainstorm leaving the format would allow them to come back.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  19. #22699
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    way to move the goalposts, dude.
    I didn't look to move the goalposts, I am pointing out that I can pull cards out of a binder too. I said, quite explicitly, that "play your cards" means "play the cards that are legal." Should I make a list of all the cards I own that aren't legal in Legacy? What good does that do?

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    i like how you downplay "those other things" like they are unimportant. those other things were lynchpins in decks sacrificed for BS.
    would "those other things" be banned if BS was not in the format? that's my question.

    how many people would like to play with "those other things"? SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain
    Once again, I and numerous other people have pointed out how spurious your assertion that all those cards were banned because of Brainstorm. You simply choose to not listen or respond to any of them, so I am not going to go over it again. Simply put, I don't agree with your assertions, or your conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    i throw-in mana drain since i like the card, but it is the weakest part of my suggestions. i see you agree, too.
    how many drains are you gonna play? you can't put them back without brainstorm.
    sit there with your UU and do nothing? go ahead, i'll play mishra's factory, wasteland, abrupt decay, cavern, even flash cards, whatever...
    The case is faulty, because it presupposes that every deck would play it. Simply put, not every card that is banned would see overwhelming amounts of play. That is beside the point. Mana Drain is a stupidly powerful card, would only serve to make the format both more Blue and then more Red, if it were legal. There simply is no need.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC & Probe are not "gish gallop". they were integral parts of decks that were sacrificed at the altar of BS.
    Once again, your assertion of this as a "fact" is dubious and has been refuted a number of times, by a number of people. You just keep ignoring it.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    i understand that and don't want fectchlands banned; the only problem is BS.
    Once again, you ignore the fact that without fetchlands, Brainstorm is a pretty fair card. So, again, you claim to know that Brainstorm is the only "problem" but you fail to actually prove this. In fact, all the "evidence" you provide points more directly at fetchlands as the problem. But, your ideology, that Brainstorm is the arch-enemy of Legacy, blinds you to this. Not to mention, you give a sort of exemption to fetchlands, on a count of what? Why does this not extend to Brainstorm?

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    i've been trying to make the case and ban just one card and bring back SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain
    And have you noticed that this case has not been furnished with even a single plausible piece of evidence for why this could or should be done? Besides you bare assertion that is is a fact, again, refuted numerous times by numerous people, in numerous ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    "legal card pool" is just a construct that you are happy with. you are figuratively on the high ground and never have alter your stance since it suits you.
    ask your play group if they would like to make decks with these cards: SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain and not BS

    we eventually talk about diversity of decks, like it is THE gold standard in the legacy play experience. if legacy is too inbred (lurrus) it's a shit show.
    what would the diversity of legacy look like without BS?
    Funny, but no, actually I would like to see numerous changes to the "legal card pool." Personally, I think the Deathrite ban was stupid, Earthcraft and Mind Twist (probably Frantic Search as well) are likely fine to tentatively unban.

    Ah, but now we are down the the real crux, the fabled "diversity." What you surmise is that Brainstorm quashes more Diversity than it enables. What evidence do you have of this? Once again, I do have the "high ground" here, because Brainstorm is legal and has been demonstrated that it will likely stay so. That means, yes, you have the burden of proof, not me.

    If you think that you can just make the rational argument that Brainstorm is more anti-diversity, than pro-diversity, I can do the same in reverse. I have no idea what you think the notional diversity that suddenly gets fostered by banning Brainstorm is, but I am high skeptical it would come to be. You are relying on your, again, suspect (at minimum) notion that Brainstorm is what made your list of cards bannable. Again, that is likely not the case and you show no evidence, aside, again, your bare assertion of this as a fact.

    But, still, you go on, as if your fabled diversity ends is served necessarily by a Brainstorm ban. Again, no evidence provided. Because, it seems, to you, no Brainstorm just automatically mean diverse, I guess. I see no other way in which you offer anything like evidence of this. So, once again, what proof do you have of this? I can only imagine that you simply place all Brainstorm decks in one "category" for this purpose, then all other decks opposed to that. So, no Brainstorm, all of a sudden, anything goes?

    No one is going to win a Legacy event with River Boas any more. That ship sailed, long, long ago. Minus Brainstorm, there isn't a utopian ideal diversity just over the horizon, in fact, it is plausible that minus Brainstorm, "diversity" suffers far more so, in light of Blue decks having less flexibility and so would centralize over the whatever emerges as optimal builds. Also, the notion that somehow, there are all sort of "Legacy playables" lurking just outside the Brainstorm-sphere, just waiting to be competitive, again, has nothing like proof to back it.

    But I think that reveals what your position likely is. What you really are making a case of is, "I am tired of Brainstorm, so anything besides Brainstorm is diversity." But I don't buy that. There will always be a next best thing that will quash options, that will suppress other things, that is the nature of a non-rotating format. See, again, I can't help but notice your appeal to a notional utopian ideal Legacy, where fabled diversity (whatever that is) rules the day. Again, actual Legacy is nothing like that, and even your ideal Legacy, were we to implement all your ideas, would likely move in that exact same way.

    So no, I don't buy your assertion that your biased take is a matter of facts. I don't buy your assertion that "diversity" is just a ban away. You have tried to make a case, but, as far as I can tell, you have only made bare assertions with nothing to back them but an appeal to your personal preferences.
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  20. #22700

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    One fundamental argument realists have stuck to is the idea of format identity.
    So many words when you could have stopped here: A format's identity is an idealistic argument. You are saying "this is how the ideal Legacy looks like" and then pretending your a realist. Man do I love banned list chat.

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