All B/R update speculation.

[Lemnear]

That said the thing I dislike about the card is how every deck has to splash to play him. Grixis is no longer true Grixis but rather 4 colour since it has to splash green to play DRS and all of his abilities. This can make for a weaker mana base in some decks.

I am pretty sure the 4c decks in question have already enough of a track record against decks attacking the manabase, to say that Wasteland, Bloodmoon & Co are not quite able to keep the fetchland+dual galore in check as long as DRS fixes mana and colors on his own

[ubernostrum]

In a format where Turn 1/2 Griselbrand and Emrakul is possible, banning DRS seems a bit silly to me.
It's not that bad of a card. Sure it accelerates your opponent with it's mana ability but so would a mana dork. I think he helps to keep Graveyard decks in check.

That said the thing I dislike about the card is how every deck has to splash to play him. Grixis is no longer true Grixis but rather 4 colour since it has to splash green to play DRS and all of his abilities. This can make for a weaker mana base in some decks.

Legacy is a format where a turn-one kill is possible. Just play Belcher, or Oops All Spells, or Spanish Inquisition, or Tin Fins, or whatever other glass-cannon combo deck you like. But don't use the existence of high-power combo as an excuse to say that only over-the-top ultra-mega-broken combo cards should be banned. I've said many times, and others have said many times, that the real problem with Deathrite Shaman is the way it provides resilience against mana-denial strategies. Traditionally, when people start playing greedy multicolor pileofgoodstuff.dek, the format keeps it in check by having people show up with more Wastelands, more Blood Moons, etc. But Deathrite Shaman makes it a lot easier to play through that hate, and in turn makes the format homogenize around the multicolor goodstuff pile.

We are seriously in an age right now where people are showing up with their 75 cards and planning to cast True-Name Nemesis (with its UU), a Liliana with a BB in her cost, and both halves of Ancient Grudge, and are also packing four Wastelands of their own. That's just ludicours.

The only serious unbans that one should consider are:

-Earthcraft (maybe creating a new deck...maybe. Combo is green heavy and weak to needle effects)
-Frantic Search (So Spiral Tide becomes t1.5 from t2)
-Goblin Recruiter (maybe)
-Memory Jar (edit: actually not sure about this one. Probably there's still room for exploit)
-Mind Twist (because it's weak)

The rest is banned for a good reason and needs to stay banned.

Super crazy way-out-there opinion I didn't put in the original comment: I genuinely think that in this era of Legacy, Hermit Druid would be safe to unban, and Bargain might be too.

[Matsu]

Legacy is a format where a turn-one kill is possible. Just play Belcher, or Oops All Spells, or Spanish Inquisition, or Tin Fins, or whatever other glass-cannon combo deck you like. But don't use the existence of high-power combo as an excuse to say that only over-the-top ultra-mega-broken combo cards should be banned. I've said many times, and others have said many times, that the real problem with Deathrite Shaman is the way it provides resilience against mana-denial strategies. Traditionally, when people start playing greedy multicolor pileofgoodstuff.dek, the format keeps it in check by having people show up with more Wastelands, more Blood Moons, etc. But Deathrite Shaman makes it a lot easier to play through that hate, and in turn makes the format homogenize around the multicolor goodstuff pile.

We are seriously in an age right now where people are showing up with their 75 cards and planning to cast True-Name Nemesis (with its UU), a Liliana with a BB in her cost, and both halves of Ancient Grudge, and are also packing four Wastelands of their own. That's just ludicours.

Super crazy way-out-there opinion I didn't put in the original comment: I genuinely think that in this era of Legacy, Hermit Druid would be safe to unban, and Bargain might be too.

I agree with what you said.

I do not know anything about Hermit Druid.
Bargain seems alright on paper, I am just afraid it will put Storm a little bit too high.
Unban YBargain, Leovold will become super strong.
If DRS stays Survival should be unbanned.

Just ban the Fetch lands: Brainstorm + DRS problem solved instantly.

[maharis]

Congratulations, you just looked like a jerk. Stop making assumptions on what I'm starting or not starting to do. Just because I share some of your opinions doesn't mean I'm "starting" to do anything.

I just get irritated when people act like they are entitled to have their deck be excellent, and other players who simply want their deck to be playable should just go away. There were plenty of painter and doomsday players who said "hey without top our deck is basically dead can we look at something else" and they were shouted down. Top is gone, Miracles is still a deck, rounds still go to time and the format is a little less diverse because of it.

You want to argue in favor of a metagame without daze and fow, because you want to play, say, BGx? Help yourself. Go on ignoring that Daze and Fow existing in legacy is the sole reason BGx is even a deck. Organize a "no free spells allowed tournament" and play fair nonblue, get Shown and Told T2 rounds 1 to 5, then come back here in the deck-related thread crying for injustice

That is not what I said. I said that a deck with 12 free spells is at a huge advantage over decks that have to tap lands every turn. In addition the value that deck gets off of having the free spells is pushing it further over the top. I understand the importance of Daze and Force to the format. But now it's just a soup of super efficient cards that ask you to do little in deckbuilding. Maybe DRS is one of those. But if we are going to say in perpetuity that Brainstorm and fetches have to be legal because "that's legacy," I don't think it's that much to ask that we also consider other cards that are powerful enough in a number of shells to stick around as well and look to tamp down problem decks instead of whacking the knees out of the format. Losing DRS after losing Top is just going to be another nail in the coffin for any non-blue deck as their consistency tools get sacrificed at the altar of Brainstorm.

Maybe you spare us the crybaby banter about how BGx's sole hope of viability relies on deathrite shaman and start realizing how toxic the card is to the metagame when combined with the blue kernel (which probably is a bit toxic itself but i'm not speaking about that right now). You said it: the blue pack is too good not to play it, and adding drs to that rises your chances of top8 by friggin 40%. Seriously.

And if the best U shell played STP or Tarmogoyf one could make the same argument. The point is that you are still in a way better position to do well if you show up with the cantrips than without it. I hear all these complaints about "homogenizing the format"thanks to freaking Deathrite Shaman and just have to laugh.

Wiz should start encouraging non blue deckbuilding in eternal with specifically aimed cards.

This is incredibly difficult to do. Anything that only costs 1 or 2 mana, especially of one color, can be easily splashed in a blue deck, even without Deathrite. (See Tarmogoyf). Anything that costs more than that and is color-intensive is simply not efficient enough to compete with the 0-1 cmc soup that's glued together by card velocity and selection from the cantrips. (Not to mention the ridiculous upcurve threats like TNN and Leovold)

The only cards that could do so are dedicated hate pieces. And Choke literally already exists. Still, Choke decks are not going to be able to compete against a deck with wildly efficient and free spells.

Besides, sitting around and waiting for Wizards to print stuff is folly.

I am pretty sure the 4c decks in question have already enough of a track record against decks attacking the manabase, to say that Wasteland, Bloodmoon & Co are not quite able to keep the fetchland+dual galore in check as long as DRS fixes mana and colors on his own

Legacy is a format where a turn-one kill is possible. Just play Belcher, or Oops All Spells, or Spanish Inquisition, or Tin Fins, or whatever other glass-cannon combo deck you like. But don't use the existence of high-power combo as an excuse to say that only over-the-top ultra-mega-broken combo cards should be banned. I've said many times, and others have said many times, that the real problem with Deathrite Shaman is the way it provides resilience against mana-denial strategies. Traditionally, when people start playing greedy multicolor pileofgoodstuff.dek, the format keeps it in check by having people show up with more Wastelands, more Blood Moons, etc. But Deathrite Shaman makes it a lot easier to play through that hate, and in turn makes the format homogenize around the multicolor goodstuff pile.

We are seriously in an age right now where people are showing up with their 75 cards and planning to cast True-Name Nemesis (with its UU), a Liliana with a BB in her cost, and both halves of Ancient Grudge, and are also packing four Wastelands of their own. That's just ludicours.

Moon Stompy and D&T decks are like 10% of the format right now. Lands is also strong. Chalice is a form of mana denial and is in 13% of decks.

How much more mana denial was prevalent before DRS was printed? I'm looking at the 2011 meta and I just don't see it.

http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=78&f=LE&meta=61

This point that DRS caused all this greed is simply not true, it's all about perception. One of the best ways to glue together a manabase is by seeing 3-4 cards a turn. One of the best ways to make those decks resilient is to give them 1-mana 5/5s that ignore wasteland, a threat that drafts off the cantrips with board presence and multiple on-color threats. Let's look at those problems more seriously.

[MechTactical]

Who cares about a damn elf? Simply unban top and post a sincere apology to the legacy community for meddling with the format in the most intrusive way. Go f*** with modern or whatever.

Top was one of the pillars of the format; It represented a power level outside the blue cantrip shell that must exist in Legacy. I will never forgive them for banning my favorite play: look, draw, repeal. The slow play argument is on the judges, not the card. I never had problems with my timing nor did any good pilots I faced (ppl that were slow with top are slow in general!! They should be banned from playing anything outside burn I guess…). Personally, I’d rather play an intelligent game against miracles any day oppose to a simpleton aggro strategy. It makes the eternal format look like a god damn charade.

I just get irritated when people act like they are entitled to have their deck be excellent, and other players who simply want their deck to be playable should just go away. There were plenty of painter and doomsday players who said "hey without top our deck is basically dead can we look at something else" and they were shouted down. Top is gone, Miracles is still a deck, rounds still go to time and the format is a little less diverse because of it.

Agreed!

[Mr. Safety]

I just get irritated when people act like they are entitled to have their deck be excellent, and other players who simply want their deck to be playable should just go away. There were plenty of painter and doomsday players who said "hey without top our deck is basically dead can we look at something else" and they were shouted down. Top is gone, Miracles is still a deck, rounds still go to time and the format is a little less diverse because of it.

Nailed it.

[Matsu]

Nailed it.

I will be extremely happy if they switch SDT for Terminus.

[Kap'n Cook]

I will be extremely happy if they switch SDT for Terminus.

Everyone would. Getting rid of terminus re-introduces the interesting dynamic we had within the control shell where they have to play 4 mana sorcery speed sweepers like supreme verdict, giving aggro a chance to at least maybe exist in the format again. Can we count on Wizards to actually understand how to manage Legacy? No, because they don't play the format.

[Mr. Safety]

Looking at it functionally, Terminus (Wrath of God) for W is the same as Treasure Cruise (Ancestral Recall) for U. They are different effects, but both absurdly undercosted. If we really want to point to a function-based reason for a banning, this seems to be fairly solid. The drawbacks aren't really drawbacks (high mana cost on both) because there are easily achieved ways to cheat the cost. If Terminus was 2W on it's miracle cost (better than Wrath, but not broken) I think it would be far more reasonable.

[easysantiago]

Remember when we all used to argue over banning Brainstorm? Let's go back to that.

[Cartesian]

Maybe someone could put up a sign outside Wizards hq, with "Sorry, we meant Terminus".

[Tittliewinks22]

Maybe someone could put up a sign outside Wizards hq, with "Sorry, we meant Terminus".

I rather a Counterbalance swap than a terminus one. I don't think we would see a sudden spike in aggro decks without it. If so we woulda seen a small bump since top ban right? I think aggro is struggling because creature creep makes "mash the best creatures" decks Superior to "mash a ton of individually weak, but strong together" guys.

Even zoo creatures are way outclassed. Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf are never going to beat a 5/5 for 1 or a 3/2 flyer for 1.

[Whitefaces]

I rather a Counterbalance swap than a terminus one. I don't think we would see a sudden spike in aggro decks without it. If so we woulda seen a small bump since top ban right? I think aggro is struggling because creature creep makes "mash the best creatures" decks Superior to "mash a ton of individually weak, but strong together" guys.

Even zoo creatures are way outclassed. Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf are never going to beat a 5/5 for 1 or a 3/2 flyer for 1.

This. Terminus can be a frustrating card, but given so much power creep on creatures in the recent years, I don't want to say 'necessary' as that's maybe a bit strong, but I truly believe Terminus helps the format more than it hurts it right now. It's one of the best cards at fighting DRS decks at least, I would give it some credit there.

[Cave]

I just get irritated when people act like they are entitled to have their deck be excellent, and other players who simply want their deck to be playable should just go away. There were plenty of painter and doomsday players who said "hey without top our deck is basically dead can we look at something else" and they were shouted down. Top is gone, Miracles is still a deck, rounds still go to time and the format is a little less diverse because of it.

Now, this is a way fairer post. That I like.

That is not what I said. I said that a deck with 12 free spells is at a huge advantage over decks that have to tap lands every turn. In addition the value that deck gets off of having the free spells is pushing it further over the top. I understand the importance of Daze and Force to the format. But now it's just a soup of super efficient cards that ask you to do little in deckbuilding. Maybe DRS is one of those.

I get it. You know, I used to play vintage back in the day. I have this idea about FOW and Daze, they are great to keep the metagame in check, making sure that no combo is powerful enough. Also, despite costing no mana, those cards are cast at a very expensive price. In my idea, we just need more fair threats that can't be splashed in a blue deck. In that way, non blue midrange could fight the "one threat then trade 1x1 until death" plan.

And if the best U shell played STP or Tarmogoyf one could make the same argument. The point is that you are still in a way better position to do well if you show up with the cantrips than without it. I hear all these complaints about "homogenizing the format"thanks to freaking Deathrite Shaman and just have to laugh.

Yeah, the question is how can you practically stop blue structural advantages from providing the best shell of the format. You ban brainstorm, ponder, preordain and gitaxian probe? Sounds nonsense. The format's beauty resides in playing powerful cards and being able to look for them when you need'em. Question is, how can you balance that?

This is incredibly difficult to do. Anything that only costs 1 or 2 mana, especially of one color, can be easily splashed...

Fixrite Shaman
G, Creature - Elf Shaman
0/1
Tap, Exile a land from any graveyard: Add or to your mana pool.
Tap, Exile a green creature from your graveyard: You gain 4 life.
Tap, Exile a black instant or sorcery from your graveyard: Target opponent loses 3 life.

It's not that difficult you just need to come up with ideas. They have people paid to do this.

Besides, sitting around and waiting for Wizards to print stuff is folly.

Yeah, and 900+ pages of people arguing about whether other people are gonna ban brainstorm or not is still folly. But humans are made of dreams...

[Mr. Safety]

I rather a Counterbalance swap than a terminus one. I don't think we would see a sudden spike in aggro decks without it. If so we woulda seen a small bump since top ban right? I think aggro is struggling because creature creep makes "mash the best creatures" decks Superior to "mash a ton of individually weak, but strong together" guys.

Even zoo creatures are way outclassed. Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf are never going to beat a 5/5 for 1 or a 3/2 flyer for 1.

All those free spells are almost irrelivent in the zoo matchup, because I'm assuming you mean Gurmag Angler and Insectile Aberration, both of which are in the Grixis Delver deck. I think, for the most part, Zoo would be fine taking on Grixis Delver as-is. I mean, Zoo always played 4 copies of Path to Exile, or in some cases Swords to Plowshares. If the Delver player counters 2/3 threats from the zoo player that leaves the zoo player free to Path the Angler, or Bolt the Delver,be left with at least one threat, and more likely to draw into more threats than the Delver player. Young Pyromancer is a problem, but not Angler/Delver (in my humble opinion.)

I think, and I feel most would agree, that Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull/Jitte/SoFI would be much harder to fight through. Hell, even Lingering Souls would be difficult for zoo to grind through without something like Grim Lavamancer. That combined with Terminus means it's just too hard to slog through. If we're talking one-to-one trades with threats/answers, zoo is actually favored. When you have something like Batterskull that's bigger than what you have and makes massive life swings, that's rough.

As a former zoo player, I was much less afraid of Counter/Top (which was common, but not dominant) than I was when Terminus became a thing. Krosan Grip and Gaddocck Teeg were mainstays in the deck, which helped but Zoo didn't have GSZ available (and Maverick eventually took over as the GWR agro deck to play, for obvious reasons.) Qasali Pridemage was at one point one of the best creatures in the Zoo deck. When a Wrath of God costs the same as *one* of my threats, with zero opportunity cost because Brainstorm/Top is already a fundamental part of their paln, it becomes a massive unbalance. Goblins had Vial for Counter/Top and Goblin Ringleader to refill, and actually had a great Miracles matchup if I remember correctly. Zoo had Sylvan Library (if it could resolve it) but that was not nearly as robust against Miracles because it couldn't snowball like Goblins.

But all of that aside, I think the real issue for zoo is that it has too many poor matchups overall, not that it can't handle 'the best deck'. Some matchups are winnable but too many require the nut draw. Looking at the way Burn occasionally steals a tournament, it's obvious a fair aggressive deck can win given the right mix. Burn has an ultra-linear plan that is very similar to Zoo, it just trades worse sideboard/hate options for a more stable mana-base and reaps the reward of a much lower opportunity cost.

[Megadeus]

I guess since 75% of the top 8 having Brainstorm is normal we won't even really discuss it?

[Kap'n Cook]

I guess since 75% of the top 8 having Brainstorm is normal we won't even really discuss it?

Only 75%? Wizards must’ve done a great job in their management of the banned list by ensuring interesting archetypes wouldn’t be suppressed by Miracles or bent over by Deathrite’s Bitches and Hoes

[Megadeus]

Only 75%? Wizards must’ve done a great job in their management of the banned list by ensuring interesting archetypes wouldn’t be suppressed by miracles or bent over by Deathrite’s Bitches and Hoes

I suppose as long as the gentlemens Dark Depths powered deck and another token non Brainstorm deck gets in every time we all view it as fine

[Kap'n Cook]

I suppose as long as the gentlemens Dark Depths powered deck and another token non Brainstorm deck gets in every time we all view it as fine

*Monday morning at Wizards*

Janitor: “Hey did you see that maverick top 8d the GP yesterday. Pretty cool right?”

Management: “Pretty cool?!?! How the fuck did that happen. Deck must be way too good to be able to beat our brainstorm decks. We should probably ban something from it.”

Janitor: “i never did like mother of runes”

April 16, 2018: Mother is runes is banned.

“We realized that mom’s ability to control combat left a lot of people feeling bad. This change ensures that your true names will always be able to block big scary knights of the reliquary or batterskull and jitte equipped mirran crusaders without fear”



The moral of this story is never give your Shortcake list to Lejay ever again.

[Megadeus]

*Monday morning at Wizards*

Janitor: “Hey did you see that maverick top 8d the GP yesterday. Pretty cool right?”

Management: “Pretty cool?!?! How the fuck did that happen. Deck must be way too good to be able to beat our brainstorm decks. We should probably ban something from it.”

Janitor: “i never did like mother of runes”

April 16, 2018: Mother is runes is banned.

“We realized that mom’s ability to control combat left a lot of people feeling bad. This change ensures that your true names will always be able to block big scary knights of the reliquary or batterskull and jitte equipped mirran crusaders without fear”



The moral of this story is never give your Shortcake list to Lejay ever again.

TFW they banned top not because of miracles, but because of Shortcake. Long live the King. At least we got to see Nedleeds on camera on friday