All B/R update speculation.

[Adryan]

Am I alone in thinking that with brainstorm banned miracles would become unstoppable?

No. For selfish reasons, i would kind of enjoy Legacy without Brainstorm. The loss of Brainstorm would definetely weaken all the Delver/Daze/Wasteland shells, and would give me more slots for some copies of Pyroclasm in the SB/MD (to show these Death and Taxes/Elves players, that the loss of Brainstorm isn't hurting very much) and 4 Jace in the maindeck.

[btm10]

OF these, the only one I'd be wary of was Survival. WGD has the potential to be degenerate, but what worked with it was Bazaar, which is banned in Legacy.

The issue with Dragon is logistics, not power. It's not good for people to be able to just draw games whenever they want.

Unbanning Survival of the Fittest would really, really shake up the format. I honestly don't know if it's too powerful, Caleb Durward seemed to think so when he did his "Banned-series".

Survival is fine, and the analysis in Durward's videos is terrible.

[Darkenslight]

The issue with Dragon is logistics, not power. It's not good for people to be able to just draw games whenever they want.

That makes sense. So, if it's possible to change that via a Rules change, would that allow for WGD to come off the banned list? More importantly, is that more or less powerful than reanimating Griselbrand?

Survival is fine, and the analysis in Durward's videos is terrible.

I'm honestly a little leery of this, but I can see why others wouldn't be.

[cab0747]

That makes sense. So, if it's possible to change that via a Rules change, would that allow for WGD to come off the banned list? More importantly, is that more or less powerful than reanimating Griselbrand?.

At times, I think the same thing about some cards. However, WotC hardly supports Legacy. I cannot imagine them putting in the effort it would take just to get WGD off of the banned list.

However, they have been giving Legacy players a lot of great reprints on MODO to make sure these eternal formats can thrive online. I could see them supporting the format more and making decisions like the one you mentioned (maybe not this exact one) if it continues to grow. Rule changes are big though and would have to be tested in multiple formats and is the juice really worth the squeeze?

[rufus]

The issue with Dragon is logistics, not power. It's not good for people to be able to just draw games whenever they want.
...

I don't understand how the ability to force draws (rather than win immediately) is really a problem. (There is some silliness w.r.t. draws in the rules, but that's not really WGD's fault.) I don't think that they want to revisit the draw rules though, when it's much easier to just leave WGD on the ban list.

[iamajellydonut]

I don't understand how the ability to force draws (rather than win immediately) is really a problem. (There is some silliness w.r.t. draws in the rules, but that's not really WGD's fault.) I don't think that they want to revisit the draw rules though, when it's much easier to just leave WGD on the ban list.

Winning the game ends the round. Bringing it to a draw does not. You simply play another game until a winner is decided or until 50+ minutes later.

[Julian23]

I don't understand how the ability to force draws (rather than win immediately) is really a problem. (There is some silliness w.r.t. draws in the rules, but that's not really WGD's fault.) I don't think that they want to revisit the draw rules though, when it's much easier to just leave WGD on the ban list.

The ability to just draw games when you're already 1-0 ahead makes it much more likely to just time out the match. Also known as stalling, which is cheating.

[Dice_Box]

It's the reason they BANNED a card in Vintage.

[Lemnear]

It's the reason they BANNED a card in Vintage.

That's the reason you get DQ'd for the 4 Horseman Loop

[rufus]

The ability to just draw games when you're already 1-0 ahead makes it much more likely to just time out the match. Also known as stalling, which is cheating.

That aspect of things can be addressed by calling draws 0.5 wins for each player (or by fixing the draw rules in other ways). [EDIT: As I wrote - they'd have to fix the rules to make WGD unban material.] Any card that damages both players at the same time can cause draws, but we don't see Hurricane on the ban list - so it's an issue of WGD *easily* causing draws, and I'm not sure that it's any easier to draw with WGD than it is to win with Griselbrand.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

the Dragon is also an Infinite Mana Engine in combination with an reanimator enchantment. So it not only force draw its also ensures
that you win if you have things like stroke in your hand.

Best regards Teveshszat

[AggroControl]

So it's clearly a design problem. Give non blue colors a way to fight combo decks with maindeckable cards, and less blue will be played. Banning Brainstorm isn't a simple solution, because no one knows how good combo decks will be. And even if combo decks don't become stronger, you can still be pretty sure that Zoo, Maverick etc. are still dead, because of an abundance of good cards that suppress these decks.

Brainstorm is a consistency tool, but the best card which provides the biggest boost in consistency is actually a non blue card: SDT. People who don't want to play blue, should actually start building better decks. I still don't understand why Jund doesn't run 3 Sylvan Libraries in the maindeck. I've done so whenever i played it, but I got too tired of losing to almost every combo deck.

Non-blue colors do have very effective ways to fight combo on the play. On the draw it really comes down to whether the opponent had the nuts or not in their opening 7.

Chalice of the Void (set to zero will stop non-High Tide combo dead in it's tracks until it finds a bounce, set to 1 off of any number of acceleration devices will stop High Tide), Thoughtseize, Leylines of the Void and Sanctity (can stop combo even on the draw), Surgical Extraction (can stop any combo list even on the draw), Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares for Painter combo, Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast for Storm combo, Mox Diamond to let Loam play Rest in Peace or Spirit of the Labyrinth or Ethersworn Canonist on turn 1,etc.

Force of Will will not be absent from the meta in the case of a Brainstorm ban, Just likely not in 65% of all top 8 lists. Combo will still be as vulnerable as it was before Brainstorms ban, both because some combo lists lose Brainstorm and because the blue meta squats really hard on archetypes that are naturally hostile to combo like Moon Stompy, Junk, Suicide Black and MUD while encouraging patsies to combo like Burn, Elves and D&T.

Combo will be worse if fewer blue lists are played, not better. The hate will be less predictable and will come from many different directions instead of just FoW and Daze.

Jund doesn't play 3 Sylvan Library because it is a dead draw after the first is down. Jund is active on every turn or they're likely dead.

[iamajellydonut]

Chalice of the Void (set to zero will stop non-High Tide combo dead in it's tracks until it finds a bounce, set to 1 off of any number of acceleration devices will stop High Tide)

It's a well documented fact that combo cannot win unless they cast Lion's Eye Diamond.

[AggroControl]

It's a well documented fact that combo cannot win unless they cast Lion's Eye Diamond.

Storm Combo can't win on turn 1 without some form of zero casting cost artifact dropping. TES has 8-11 zero cc artifacts in the list. ANT has 8-9. Dredge's best starts come off of LED on turn 1. Belcher has 12 zero cc artifacts. Ooops All Spells has 8 zero cc artifacts and wins off of Summoner's Pact a lot of the time.

Give me a Chalice at zero before combo has played and I'll be about 80% confident I am winning that game.

[Julian23]

Hello,

the Dragon is also an Infinite Mana Engine in combination with an reanimator enchantment. So it not only force draw its also ensures
that you win if you have things like stroke in your hand.

Best regards Teveshszat

I think we are all well aware of this. It's powerlevel as a game-ending card is not the problem as I guess people will agree that's pretty weak compared to the other options.

[Matsaya]

Painter ?
Elfball ?

[Megadeus]

Neither painter or Elves wins on T1, so non blue decks still can interact

[AggroControl]

Painter ?
Elfball ?

Painter dies to a bolt or StP in reaction to the activation. I won a game recently playing Jund in which the Painter player went first and dropped LED, artifact land, Mox Opal and 2 Grindstones on turn 1. He just needed one more mana source and Painter's Servant and I was dead on his turn 3 unless I drew another bolt. I dropped a Bloodstained Mire, holding a bolt and just prayed that he didn't drop Painter's Servant and another land on turn 2. He did have the Painter's Servant but he had no land and he got impatient and sac'd LED to try for the win. When he activated Grindstone I fetched a Badlands and bolted the Painter's Servant. Game over for him.

Elfball dies to disruption like CoTV and Trinisphere and there are lots of tier 1.5 lists that can blow it out. The problem is that the current meta is very hostile to almost everything that is not blue that keeps it in check. This is true also for D&T but not to the same extent since D&T is grindier and at least gives the opponent several turns to react to their plays.

[dunk]

Hello,

the Dragon is also an Infinite Mana Engine in combination with an reanimator enchantment. So it not only force draw its also ensures
that you win if you have things like stroke in your hand.

Best regards Teveshszat

Yeah. And there is Griselband, which makes you win regardless of what's left in your hand. Dragon can and will stay banned forever. It's just a logistical nightmare for tournaments and for judges.

[Ellomdian]

The fear that Dragon creates draws 'at will' is absurd - it no more does so than Earthquake or Oblivion Rings, outside of a given gamestate. Dragon was banned for power level reasons, and it has remained on the list for the same reason that Mind Over Matter did - WotC has been reluctant to actively prune the list.

Comparing it to Shahrazad (or even SDT) is a fundamentally flawed argument in that those cards are independently responsible for logistical issues outside of any other interaction.