All B/R update speculation.

[menace13]

absurd - it no more does so than Earthquake or Oblivion Rings.

While those cards can technically create draws. They are way less likely to do so than WGD.

[rufus]

While those cards can technically create draws. They are way less likely to do so than WGD.

If he problem is that it makes draws too easy, and not just that it causes draws, then it's a power level issue. It's also not that hard to change the rules so that draws aren't quite so problematic (for example by penalising deliberate draws with game losses).

[Megadeus]

Also WGD being a viable card in an infinite combo, the amount of play that it would see would far surpass that of earthquake/hurricane which see no play. PoP is the only card that sees play right now that creates draws that I can think of.

[Ellomdian]

It's also not that hard to change the rules so that draws aren't quite so problematic (for example by penalising deliberate draws with game losses).

How is changing a fundamental aspect of the determination of a game's outcome 'easy'? It's already almost universally awful when a judge is involved in determining the outcome of a game - I can't imagine policy shifting this direction.

Also WGD being a viable card in an infinite combo, the amount of play that it would see would far surpass that of earthquake/hurricane which see no play. PoP is the only card that sees play right now that creates draws that I can think of.

I think you overrate 'viable' and 'amount of play' - while it was grossly simplified, I feel like Caleb Durward summed it up best when he said "Why would I reanimate Dragon when I could just get Griselbrand instead?"

And for the record, I am pretty sure I have seen more draws as a result of SDT in the last week than I have ever seen from WGD in formats when it was legal.

[ESG]

I think you overrate 'viable' and 'amount of play' - while it was grossly simplified, I feel like Caleb Durward summed it up best when he said "Why would I reanimate Dragon when I could just get Griselbrand instead?"

And for the record, I am pretty sure I have seen more draws as a result of SDT in the last week than I have ever seen from WGD in formats when it was legal.

Voice of reason here: If the dragon's sole function is to cause draws, why do any of you want it unbanned?

[Zombie]

Voice of reason here: If the dragon's sole function is to cause draws, why do any of you want it unbanned?

Becuse shorter list is somehow worth taking a card off the list that either does nothing or makes the format worse?

[HammerAndSickled]

I mean, just because a card is legal doesn't mean it's competitive or playable. Remember that people used to argue fervently that Land Tax was untouchable too, for various reasons. But the card was unbanned and none of those perceived issues about too much shuffling, etc. came into play, because simply no one played Tax. Similarly, Dragon seems much worse than any other combo deck in existence, gets hit the hardest with today's grave hate, it's harder to cause draws than in the past due to the increasing proliferation of creatures, and the lack of Bazaar means that the engine itself is 'fair' and beatable.

And to undress that argument even further, "If [c]Divine Intervention[/c]'s sole function is to cause draws, why is it legal?" A smaller banned list is intrinsically a good thing, so any unban should be the default without evidence that it's unsafe.

Note that this is basically the equivalent of a devil's advocate argument, because I've come to understand that Legacy has been forgotten by Wizards and we will not see another unban from now until that fateful day where WotC declares Legacy 'dead.'

[Dice_Box]

Honestly, who here really would play with the Dragon these days over the many other options on the table?

[iamajellydonut]

Honestly, who here really would play with the Dragon these days over the many other options on the table?

Might as well ask the same question of Belcher or OmniShow, but people still play them.

[Dice_Box]

Might as well ask the same question of Belcher or OmniShow, but people still play them.

True, but you see them once in a blue moon and the decks are unstable. I do not like WGD, I understand every argument against it, but I just can not find myself agreeing that it is such a big boggy man that it would realisticly fuck the format if unbanned. Yea, you will get Ties, yea, people will be dicks and push games to ties. But hey, people already do that with Miracles, Lands and sometimes Painter so whatever. Live and let live. Of all the cards that are on that list, WGD I feel is one of the tamer ones.

[AggroControl]

Note that this is basically the equivalent of a devil's advocate argument, because I've come to understand that Legacy has been forgotten by Wizards and we will not see another unban from now until that fateful day where WotC declares Legacy 'dead.'

WotC will never declare Legacy dead. What will happen is that both Vintage and Legacy will become proxy formats at some point and WotC will not sanction those events, effectively leading to a lack of support for the format. Vintage is almost there at this point.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

If he problem is that it makes draws too easy, and not just that it causes draws, then it's a power level issue. It's also not that hard to change the rules so that draws aren't quite so problematic (for example by penalising deliberate draws with game losses).

Sry, that's not exactly good idea. So if you're at one life against opponent at two who has a Squire in play and you draw your only card and it is Earthquake and your only permanents are three Mountains, should you be punished for casting the said EQ for 2 dmg? That's silly, isn't it?

[Barook]

WotC will never declare Legacy dead. What will happen is that both Vintage and Legacy will become proxy formats at some point and WotC will not sanction those events, effectively leading to a lack of support for the format. Vintage is almost there at this point.

The Chinese are likely to take over before that happens. There's just too much money to be made to let that opportunity slip.

[nedleeds]

WotC will never declare Legacy dead. What will happen is that both Vintage and Legacy will become proxy formats at some point and WotC will not sanction those events, effectively leading to a lack of support for the format. Vintage is almost there at this point.

There were thousands of Legacy staples at Gencon. Legacy will continue moving towards being an older employed persons format, as players age and get jobs and have money they'll stay with eternal magic. They are employed and have money so there's no need to sell their collections, they have discretionary income to buy whatever pittance of eternal playable cards come out of new sets. The ongoing cost of legacy or vintage isn't shit compared to standard. So attendance might slowly dwindle, but more likely it'll age slowly -- like a fine wine.

The 65~ person vintage at Gencon had zero children. Somebodies nephew was playing a borrowed dredge deck. It was employed, middle aged (25-50) men with discretionary income ..... JUST LIKE ME.

[AggroControl]

The Chinese are likely to take over before that happens. There's just too much money to be made to let that opportunity slip.

The lack of counterfeits so far is kind of amazing if you think about it.

[AggroControl]

There were thousands of Legacy staples at Gencon. Legacy will continue moving towards being an older employed persons format, as players age and get jobs and have money they'll stay with eternal magic. They are employed and have money so there's no need to sell their collections, they have discretionary income to buy whatever pittance of eternal playable cards come out of new sets. The ongoing cost of legacy or vintage isn't shit compared to standard. So attendance might slowly dwindle, but more likely it'll age slowly -- like a fine wine.

The 65~ person vintage at Gencon had zero children. Somebodies nephew was playing a borrowed dredge deck. It was employed, middle aged (25-50) men with discretionary income ..... JUST LIKE ME.

I agree on all points. However this is a North American perspective. There are a lot of people who play Magic who don't have access to the cards and even in North America I've heard of shops running Legacy proxy tournaments for the cash they bring in. If you don't have a lot of Legacy staples for sale in your shop there is no reason not to collect $300 from 20 people willing to play in a proxy tournament.

[FieryBalrog]

The lack of counterfeits so far is kind of amazing if you think about it.

Would you even know if your opponents were playing counterfeits?

Definitely discourages me from shelling out for any more old cards.

[Julian23]

The lack of counterfeits so far is kind of amazing if you think about it.

Only if you think there actually was a lack of counterfeits. You probably missed it but it's been a pretty big issue earlier this year.

[btm10]

There were thousands of Legacy staples at Gencon. Legacy will continue moving towards being an older employed persons format, as players age and get jobs and have money they'll stay with eternal magic. They are employed and have money so there's no need to sell their collections, they have discretionary income to buy whatever pittance of eternal playable cards come out of new sets. The ongoing cost of legacy or vintage isn't shit compared to standard. So attendance might slowly dwindle, but more likely it'll age slowly -- like a fine wine.

The 65~ person vintage at Gencon had zero children. Somebodies nephew was playing a borrowed dredge deck. It was employed, middle aged (25-50) men with discretionary income ..... JUST LIKE ME.

+1

That's why I play these formats. I need to find people willing to play a 93/94 variant that allows cards through Mirage or something.

[Adryan]

Whenever i print proxies with my printer at home, i always recognize that if i would invest some time, that no one at a tournament would realize that they are printed on a paper sheet...

What i want to say is that there are way more counterfeits out there than people think. Just don't try to sell them and no one will find out.